Where does the VW Golf R32 fit in?
How about the new 2.0T Audis and VWs? Should they be specified in whatever classes the 1.8T cars are in?
2006 Car classification proposal
Moderators: Boondocker850, blindsidefive0
I would say that the difference between the 94-97 and the 99-05 Miatas is similar to the difference between the 90-93 and the 94-7 Miatas. With that in mind, I would go with the original proposal and take it a step further by placing all 1990-2005 Miatas in the proposed SSC.
The 1999-2005 Miatas would be outclassed against cars in the 'new SSB' like the Audi A4 1.8L turbo, Dodge Neon ACR, Mini Cooper S (supercharged), 2002+Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo, Fiero V6, VW Corrado V6, etc.
Of course this puts the current SSC cars at an even greater disadvantage, but if this sweeping class change is to be accepted, it is the right thing to do.
The 1999-2005 Miatas would be outclassed against cars in the 'new SSB' like the Audi A4 1.8L turbo, Dodge Neon ACR, Mini Cooper S (supercharged), 2002+Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo, Fiero V6, VW Corrado V6, etc.
Of course this puts the current SSC cars at an even greater disadvantage, but if this sweeping class change is to be accepted, it is the right thing to do.
96 Miata #72 SC
PRA 4
PRA 4
The M2's (1999-2005 Miata) seem competitive in Spec Miata with a smaller restrictor in the intake. Should tell you something. All theses cars run the same size throttle body.
The M2's also weigh a 100 pounds more than a '94 and 200 pounds more than a 1.6
1990 - 1993 No restriction (57mm)
1994 - 1995 47mm restrictor
1996 - 1997 45mm restrictor
1999 - 2005 41mm restrictor
The M2's also weigh a 100 pounds more than a '94 and 200 pounds more than a 1.6
1990 - 1993 No restriction (57mm)
1994 - 1995 47mm restrictor
1996 - 1997 45mm restrictor
1999 - 2005 41mm restrictor
Les.
COM Instructor
NA Miata D-TYPE
#77
Drive it like you stole it!
COM Instructor
NA Miata D-TYPE
#77
Drive it like you stole it!
The sad truth is that people have simply accepted the existing classingGrippy wrote:Could someone please refresh my memory, what is the problem with the current system? I have not heard one person complaining that his or her car is poorly classed this year. Why fix what isn't broke?
structure because that's what is there. I like to think it's because COM
is so cool that people will put up with anything to run with us, but it's
probably because racers will put up with anything to get track time.
Cars change, and I think everyone will agree that cars have changed
a LOT in the last 8 years (since the last time the class structure was
completely overhauled by Stu Greene - remember that?)
Although no one comes to a Board meeting, stamps their little feet
and screams at us that their car is unfairly classed (OK, maybe that
happens once in a while!
), it is generally an unspoken understandingthat the class structure has been ready for another overhaul for a season
or so.
So, here we are!
-Herb DaSilva
2004 SRT-4, Blue #62, ST2
2004 SRT-4, Blue #62, ST2
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offcamber09
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1014
- Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:44 pm
- Location: East Kingston, NH
- Contact:
Agreed
I agree with Herb. Although I don't have a duck in this pond- unless I pull that Toyota Starlet out of mothballs and chew on SSC for a while- I think one of the strengths of this club is the vast mix of ages of our members and the infusion of new ideas from the next generation of racers...even if they do drive Subarus. This doesn't appear to be a thrown together proposal or have a hidden agenda.
p.s. Grab that SSC championship this year Tina and I'll let you run my Starlet next year to be competitive.
p.s. Grab that SSC championship this year Tina and I'll let you run my Starlet next year to be competitive.
Scott Rosnick
#09 BMW 318ti-6
#09 BMW 318ti-6
-
haydntaylor
Hi All,
I have not had a chance to read all of this thread, so I may have missed some important input. If this is the case and my comments dont jive I appologize.
At the last COM event at NHIS I learned my ST3 2001 Miata, which is currently competative in the ST3 class, but certainly not any different to the other class leading miata performances will next year be effectively reclassed to become uncompetative. I can only comment about my particular car in my particular current class, but reading the proposal I feel that the most contentious issue here is probably the miata class split based on age.
It seems to me that if I have consistenly placed podium results this year, the proposed changes will no doubt change that status next year to class finnishes closer to the bottom of the group, that the Miata class change in particular for 99-05 modles is not a wise move.
I appreciate that changes may be required to even out group sizes, however my personal opinion is as follows
A) all miatas up to 05 (exluding the mazdaspeed) should be grouped togeather
B) Addition of a class group between ST & PC which would allow limited HP tuning whilst retaining original factory motor should be included. I believe this is the class that most of us would like to be in as a lot of the ST3 class cars are street driven to the event, and that means engine mods in my mind, Cam, head work etc. I appreciate this would be hard to manage but from my point of view I think it would be a fun class to be in as we are now adding in more technical knowledge to augment good driving. Without simply saying 'put any motor you want in it'
I am sure you have all considered a simple power to weight formula to assist classification, based on factory specs which are readilly available. Maybe augment that with a few caviats such as forced induction and AWD. That kind of analysis on factory produced cars may help, especially when comparing miata classes.
Well thats my 2c for now.....
I am sure everyone involved will figure out a great solution. I know I for one just enjoy the track time and winning trophies is a total non issue for me personally.
I have not had a chance to read all of this thread, so I may have missed some important input. If this is the case and my comments dont jive I appologize.
At the last COM event at NHIS I learned my ST3 2001 Miata, which is currently competative in the ST3 class, but certainly not any different to the other class leading miata performances will next year be effectively reclassed to become uncompetative. I can only comment about my particular car in my particular current class, but reading the proposal I feel that the most contentious issue here is probably the miata class split based on age.
It seems to me that if I have consistenly placed podium results this year, the proposed changes will no doubt change that status next year to class finnishes closer to the bottom of the group, that the Miata class change in particular for 99-05 modles is not a wise move.
I appreciate that changes may be required to even out group sizes, however my personal opinion is as follows
A) all miatas up to 05 (exluding the mazdaspeed) should be grouped togeather
B) Addition of a class group between ST & PC which would allow limited HP tuning whilst retaining original factory motor should be included. I believe this is the class that most of us would like to be in as a lot of the ST3 class cars are street driven to the event, and that means engine mods in my mind, Cam, head work etc. I appreciate this would be hard to manage but from my point of view I think it would be a fun class to be in as we are now adding in more technical knowledge to augment good driving. Without simply saying 'put any motor you want in it'
I am sure you have all considered a simple power to weight formula to assist classification, based on factory specs which are readilly available. Maybe augment that with a few caviats such as forced induction and AWD. That kind of analysis on factory produced cars may help, especially when comparing miata classes.
Well thats my 2c for now.....
I am sure everyone involved will figure out a great solution. I know I for one just enjoy the track time and winning trophies is a total non issue for me personally.
Maybe one thing that hasn't been thought out is the fact with updating/backdating, the move from SSC to ST4 or SSB to ST3 doesn't always apply?
With interchanging parts (like the Miata) the cars in reality become very close, unlike their stock classes.
IMO there is a huge difference between a border line normally aspirated SSB car and a turbo charged SSA car. Throw in "ECU mod's" in ST and things are even worse.
While the stock classes seem reasonable, ST may need tweaking.
With interchanging parts (like the Miata) the cars in reality become very close, unlike their stock classes.
IMO there is a huge difference between a border line normally aspirated SSB car and a turbo charged SSA car. Throw in "ECU mod's" in ST and things are even worse.
While the stock classes seem reasonable, ST may need tweaking.
Les.
COM Instructor
NA Miata D-TYPE
#77
Drive it like you stole it!
COM Instructor
NA Miata D-TYPE
#77
Drive it like you stole it!
That is true, new cars have changed substantially in the past 8 years and I agree that the club rules should adapt to structure the classes so they promote fair competition across the board. The performance bar gets raised every year, and as car enthusiasts we are lucky that these advances are happening across all types of cars, not just the supercar manufacturers. Who would have thought affordable Subarus, Mitsubishis, Dodges, etc., would be the fun-to-drive powerhouses they are?HerbD wrote:Cars change, and I think everyone will agree that cars have changed a LOT in the last 8 years (since the last time the class structure was completely overhauled by Stu Greene - remember that?)
As far as I can tell, the new classification proposal addresses these new 'top-level' cars by putting these cars in the highest SS level, SSU, and trickling down the changes from there. By the time the proposal gets down to SSB, where many of the cars that are older than 8 years are, there are no more classes. As a result, SSB is combined with SSC.
From what I can tell, no current competitor in SSC, SSB, ST4 or ST3 feels that the current class structure in these classes is inadequate. If someone does, please post here!!
96 Miata #72 SC
PRA 4
PRA 4
Updates on Page 6
I have updates both the primary and secondary proposals posted on page 6 with the following changes:
E36 318 moved to SSC in the primary proposal
Toyota Celica GTS divided up. In both proposals, the 1982-93 GTS's are in SSC and the 2000+ GTS's are in SSB. According to the limited information I have found, there was no GTS from 1994-99.
Nissan NX2000 moved to the same classes as the 1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R in both proposals.
VW Golf R32 classified in SSGT in both proposals.
On a seperate note, the idea of not having all cars from SS go to the same ST class has been considered. Initailly it was considered witht he Mustangs, as there are somne Mustangs that have much larger performance gains going from SS to ST trim than others. The reason why this was not put into the proposal is that the cars in question end up in different classes in my proposal, so it's not really an issue. IMO, the Miatas will all gain about the same going from maxed out SS to maxed out ST trim. There is a significant power difference from the NA 1.8 to NB 1.8 Miatas, and everything that can be done in ST to the NA cars can also be done to the NB cars, and have similar gains. The intake manifold of the NB cars is a significant improvement over the manifold used on the NA cars, and that is not a part that is allowed to be changed in the ST classes.
...and for the record, I'm an SSB/ST3 competitor who thinks that the current class structure is insufficient. Though the problem is not nearly as big with these classes as it is with SSA/SSGT/ST2/ST1, the problems with those classes are enough to warrant this change. The new class structure is set up so that the cars that are likely to be showing up in the future will have a home where they will be competitive without having to go through the patchwork band-aids that are currently in place. SSC and ST4, though well attended in 1993 when the current structure was put in place, currently only has one car model in it, and that car has not been made in 12 years. I certainly do not see there being a sudden resurgence and having 5+ car fields in either of these classes as was the case at most of the events when the current structure was implimented.
E36 318 moved to SSC in the primary proposal
Toyota Celica GTS divided up. In both proposals, the 1982-93 GTS's are in SSC and the 2000+ GTS's are in SSB. According to the limited information I have found, there was no GTS from 1994-99.
Nissan NX2000 moved to the same classes as the 1991 Nissan Sentra SE-R in both proposals.
VW Golf R32 classified in SSGT in both proposals.
On a seperate note, the idea of not having all cars from SS go to the same ST class has been considered. Initailly it was considered witht he Mustangs, as there are somne Mustangs that have much larger performance gains going from SS to ST trim than others. The reason why this was not put into the proposal is that the cars in question end up in different classes in my proposal, so it's not really an issue. IMO, the Miatas will all gain about the same going from maxed out SS to maxed out ST trim. There is a significant power difference from the NA 1.8 to NB 1.8 Miatas, and everything that can be done in ST to the NA cars can also be done to the NB cars, and have similar gains. The intake manifold of the NB cars is a significant improvement over the manifold used on the NA cars, and that is not a part that is allowed to be changed in the ST classes.
...and for the record, I'm an SSB/ST3 competitor who thinks that the current class structure is insufficient. Though the problem is not nearly as big with these classes as it is with SSA/SSGT/ST2/ST1, the problems with those classes are enough to warrant this change. The new class structure is set up so that the cars that are likely to be showing up in the future will have a home where they will be competitive without having to go through the patchwork band-aids that are currently in place. SSC and ST4, though well attended in 1993 when the current structure was put in place, currently only has one car model in it, and that car has not been made in 12 years. I certainly do not see there being a sudden resurgence and having 5+ car fields in either of these classes as was the case at most of the events when the current structure was implimented.
Kevin Foote
#64 SB Nissan 350Z
1998-2003 Chief of Tech
1998-2002 BOD member
SSB Track Record Holder at LRP
#64 SB Nissan 350Z
1998-2003 Chief of Tech
1998-2002 BOD member
SSB Track Record Holder at LRP
As WillM stated:
As far as I can tell, the new classification proposal addresses these new 'top-level' cars by putting these cars in the highest SS level, SSU, and trickling down the changes from there. By the time the proposal gets down to SSB, where many of the cars that are older than 8 years are, there are no more classes. As a result, SSB is combined with SSC.
From what I can tell, no current competitor in SSC, SSB, ST4 or ST3 feels that the current class structure in these classes is inadequate. If someone does, please post here!!
I just got back into town and go caught up on the later posts.
I would like to reiterate my early comments that the 1994-2005 Miata's (except Mazdaspeed) should be classed together. As stated by others, I have significant reservations about being competitive in my 2001 Miata with several cars already mentioned in the new SSB category. In my mind, these differences are greater than those between the 1994-97 and 1999-2005 Miata's. Givern the limited # of 1.6l cars showing up for events, at least in SS, I would be inclined to include all M1 and M2 Miata's together as others have suggested, since it is unlikely that many more will show up as the years march forward.
Can't speak much to the ST or modified issues although it does make some sense to me to have a "basic engine mods" class between the "suspension modified" ST class and the "no holds barred" modifications. However, I must admit to being unable to describe what this would look like due to my miniscule technical savvy - which is why I'm still in SS.
Sorry I'll miss the meeting on the 16th, and I'm confident that "cooler and wiser" heads will prevail,
Dennis
As far as I can tell, the new classification proposal addresses these new 'top-level' cars by putting these cars in the highest SS level, SSU, and trickling down the changes from there. By the time the proposal gets down to SSB, where many of the cars that are older than 8 years are, there are no more classes. As a result, SSB is combined with SSC.
From what I can tell, no current competitor in SSC, SSB, ST4 or ST3 feels that the current class structure in these classes is inadequate. If someone does, please post here!!
I just got back into town and go caught up on the later posts.
I would like to reiterate my early comments that the 1994-2005 Miata's (except Mazdaspeed) should be classed together. As stated by others, I have significant reservations about being competitive in my 2001 Miata with several cars already mentioned in the new SSB category. In my mind, these differences are greater than those between the 1994-97 and 1999-2005 Miata's. Givern the limited # of 1.6l cars showing up for events, at least in SS, I would be inclined to include all M1 and M2 Miata's together as others have suggested, since it is unlikely that many more will show up as the years march forward.
Can't speak much to the ST or modified issues although it does make some sense to me to have a "basic engine mods" class between the "suspension modified" ST class and the "no holds barred" modifications. However, I must admit to being unable to describe what this would look like due to my miniscule technical savvy - which is why I'm still in SS.
Sorry I'll miss the meeting on the 16th, and I'm confident that "cooler and wiser" heads will prevail,
Dennis
Sad to see my SSB 2001 Miata go.
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haydntaylor
q: Where will my Audi be?
OK, So Ive been trying to figure this out for a week or so....in order that I can decide how far ti go in preparing my car for next year.
Wondering if you can help clarify for me under the proposed new rules.
1988 Audi 5000 Quattro - 5cyl turbo.
Body externally stock looking, internally gutted and caged. Motor has had work, and replaced turbo with a giant one, aftermarket injection and ecu. Coilovers, Porche brakes etc.
I think its SPB, but maybe SPA due to the turbo, despite it being a factory option to have the 5cyl turbo.
One final clarifiaction if you dont mind....if I flare the arches wil that push me to PB?
Thanks
H
Wondering if you can help clarify for me under the proposed new rules.
1988 Audi 5000 Quattro - 5cyl turbo.
Body externally stock looking, internally gutted and caged. Motor has had work, and replaced turbo with a giant one, aftermarket injection and ecu. Coilovers, Porche brakes etc.
I think its SPB, but maybe SPA due to the turbo, despite it being a factory option to have the 5cyl turbo.
One final clarifiaction if you dont mind....if I flare the arches wil that push me to PB?
Thanks
H
-
brucesallen
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 9:56 am
- Location: NH
- Contact:
fender Flares
"...if I flare the arches wil that push me to PB? "
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Bruce Allen
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
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haydntaylor
Re: fender Flares
Bugger,brucesallen wrote:"...if I flare the arches wil that push me to PB? "
Absolutely.
I want to do it just because it will look really cool! it will also allow me to get some bigger rubber in there too.
I know the car will most likely be non competative anyhow, so maybe Ill just do it anyway
H
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