2006 Car classification proposal

[denndy]

I believe it would be useful to have a general meeting devoted to various proposals for re-classification once they have all been developed and distributed. If people are unable to attend, they could submit statements in writing for consideration.

Any re-classification is unlikely to receive unanimous approval, any more than the current scheme suits everyone. What I am pleased to see is the passion members have for making the club better and more enjoyable for all those participating.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time and effort to think through the ramifications of any proposed change, and I feel confident that with a full airing of opinions and ideas, we'll end up with a better classification alignment for 2006.

Dennis

[brucesallen]

That general meeting is the rules meeting Nov. 16, 7 PM.

[Crusin]

i hear all these conversations about how the 1.6 miata is .2s slower than the 1.8 at nhis.

It's more like a couple of seconds depending on the track. Look at the results from the NHIS event last weekend.

--Michael
ST4 Miata #176

Having participated in these conversations, I was curious about the what the reality might be behind the opinions. So I looked up the fastest times I could find for ST3 and ST4 Miatas at all the various tracks. Amazingly enough, the difference really does appear to be only ~0.2 seconds! The average of the differences below is 0.1. If you throw out the 2 extremes (which are also tracks with few times available - Shenendoah and NHIS NO), the difference is 0.2.

- Nate

LIME ROCK
ST3 Stephen Pope 01:10.1 2003
ST4 Mike Carr 01:12.0 2003
MOSPORT
ST3 Gordon Andrade 01:46.4 2005
ST4 Lee Walsh 01:46.9 2004
SUMMIT POINT- Main
ST3 Stephen Pope 01:33.7 2004
ST4 Lee Walsh 01:33.3 2003
SHENANDOAH
ST3 Gordon Andrade 02:05.3 2005
ST4 Stephen Hosker 02:07.5 2005
NHIS NORTH OVAL
ST3 Matthew Daniels 01:29.4 2004
ST4 Stephen Hosker 01:26.4 2004
NHIS SOUTH OVAL
ST3 Stephen Pope 01:21.4 2004
ST4 Lee Walsh 01:20.1 2004
NHIS CHICANE / CHICANE
ST3 Gordon Andrade 01:24.8 2005
ST4 Michael Carr 01:24.6 2005
MT TREMBLANT
ST3 Gordon Andrade 02:05.0 2005
ST4 Will Martins 02:06.8 2005
WATKINS GLEN
ST3 Gordon Andrade 02:27.2 2005
ST4 Will Martins 02:28.2 2005

Please review the above times, posted for the same event, same year. You can not use times from different events/years due to the huge possibility of different track conditions.

Reviewing the above figures for the same year/event:

Lime Rock 2005 1.9 seconds
Shenandoah 2005 2.1 seconds
NHIS North Oval 2004 3.0 seconds
NHIS South Oval 2004 1.3 seconds
NHIS Chicane/Chicane 2005 0.2 seconds (1.6 and 1.8 miata have equal handling as demaned on this configuration. HP is not a factor)
Mt. Tremblant 2005 1.8 seconds
Watkins Glen 2005 1.0 seconds

How throw out the extremes and the time difference is closer to 1.5 seconds.

[denndy]

That general meeting is the rules meeting Nov. 16, 7 PM.

Unfortunately I will be traveling for business that day.

For me and others that are interested, and might want to comment, but who cannot attend the meeting, it would be great to see a "final" version of any proposed rule changes soon enough (perhaps by November 11th) to provide thoughtful feedback.

Thanks,
Dennis

[rajito]

Lime Rock 2005 1.9 seconds

Whoa Lee, I didn't know it was past Nov. 19 already

Raj

[Crusin]

Lime Rock 2005 1.9 seconds

Whoa Lee, I didn't know it was past Nov. 19 already

Raj

That was a test to see who was paying attention and you passed.

Actually, I figured it would be too cold to go to LRP, so I just mailed in my times.

[kfoote]

You do have to look at weather conditions when considering the NHIS Oct. event times as well. As much as I'd like to think it was all driver, the weather conditions and tire choice had a big effect on me and my SSB car not only being the fastest Miata (!), but the fastest SS car as well (!!)

I'm hoping to have at least the revised primary proposal posted tonight, basically a revision of the original proposal posted earlier in this thread.

[kfoote]

This will be the final primary proposal unless there are singular errors or omissions. There will be a secondary proposal that will keep the 1.8L Miatas and the 1.6L Miatas seperate.

SSU:

Audi RS6
BMW E46 M3, M Coupe/Roadster S54, V8 NOC, V10
Chevrolet Corvette 1991+ NOC
Dodge Stealth Turbo, Viper
Ferrari NOC
Ford Mustang Cobra 2003-2004, 1995, 2000 Cobra R, 2003-04 SVT
Lamborghini, All models
Lotus Esprit 8-cyl turbo
Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo, Lancer Evolution
Nissan 300ZX V6 Twin Turbo
Pantera
Porsche 911Turbo, 993, 996, 997, 928 GTS
Subaru WRX STi
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo

SSGT:

Acura TL, NSX
Audi V8 NA, S6
BMW E36 M3, E46 330, E28, E34 M5; M6; E39 540; M Coupe/Roadster S52, Z4 3.0i
Chevrolet Camaro SS Ram Air, 1LE, SLP, Corvette C4 1985-91 except ZR1
Ferrari 328
Ford Mustang V8 1996-2001 Cobra, 1993 Cobra R, F150 Lightning
Lotus Esprit 4-cyl Turbo, Elise S2, Exiege
Maserati, All models
Mazda RX7 Twin Turbo
Nissan 350Z
Pontiac Firebird Formula
Porsche 911 3.2L, 944 Turbo, Turbo S, Boxster S, 928 5.0L
Toyota MR2 turbo
VW Golf R32

SSA:

Acura Integra Type R, RSX Type S
Audi S4, A4 NOC
BMW E36 328; E46 323, 325, 328; Z3 2.8L, 528, 535, 633, 635, Z4 2.5i, E30 M3
Chevrolet Camaro V8 (except SS Ram Air, 1LE, SLP), V8 NOC, Malibu V8
Chrysler Corp., mass-produced FWD Intercooled Turbo, Omni GLH, GLHS
Corvette (solid rear axle), C4 1984
Datsun/Nissan 280ZX Turbo, 300ZX Turbo 1984-89, 300ZX NA 1990-96
Dodge Stealth normally aspirated
Dodge Neon SRT-4
Ferrari 308
Ford Mustang SVO, V8 1982-2004 Solid Rear Axle, 1993 Cobra R, V8 Trucks/SUV's
Honda S2000
GM V8 Trucks/SUV's
Mazda RX7 13B Turbo, RX8, Mazdaspeed Miata, Mazdaspeed Protégé, Miata 2006+
Mercedes Benz 190E 12v and 16v
Mercury Capri 302
Mitsubishi 3000 GT normally aspirated
Nissan 300ZX V6 normally aspirated, Altima 3.5, Maxima 3.5
Pontiac Trans Am, Firebird except Formula, Solstice
Porsche 911 2.7-3.0L NA, 944S, 944S2, 968, Boxster, 924 Turbo, 928 4.7L and under
Saab 9000 Aero
Saturn Sky
Subaru WRX 2001-2005
Toyota Supra 3.0 turbo
Volvo 5-cyl turbo

SSB:

Acura Legend, Integra GSR 1.7, Integra VTEC, RSX, TSX
Alfa Romeo Sprint Veloce, Sports Sedan , GTV-6, Milano 3.0
Audi A4 V6 2.8 and 1.8L turbo
BMW E30 325; E36 325; E39 525, E28, E34 525, Z3 1.9, 2.5
Chevrolet Beretta GTZ, Camaro 6 cyl, Monza 2+2
Datsun/Nissan 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, 300ZX 1984-89 NA
Dodge Shelby Charger Turbo, Omni GLH, Neon ACR
Eagle Talon turbo
Ford 302 Mustang II, Mach I, Cobra II, V6 1999+, 4 cyl Turbo; T-bird Turbo, SC; '89 Cougar, Contour, Focus SVT
Ford Taurus SHO, Probe turbo and V6
Honda Prelude VTEC, Si 92-93; Del Sol VTEC, Civic SI 2002+
Mazda RX7 13B IRS, MX6GT, Miata 1999-2005
Mercedes Benz 190E 8v
Merkur XR4Ti
Mini Cooper S (supercharged) 2002+
Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo, Galant VR4, Mirage 16v Turbo
Nissan 200SX 3.0, Sentra SER Spec V, 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, Maxima 3.0L and less
Oldsmobile Starfire Firenza, 305, Quad 4
Peugeot 505 Turbo '88 and newer
Plymouth Laser Turbo, Quad 4
Pontiac Trans Am NOC, Fiero V6
Porsche 944 8v, 924S, 924, 911 under 2.4L
Saab 900 Turbo, 9000 Turbo
Subaru 2.5L+ Normally Aspirated
Toyota Celica 4WD Turbo, GTS 2000+, Supra, 2.8, MR2SC, MR2 NA 1990-1995, MRS
Triumph TR8
Volvo 4 cyl Turbo, 850
VW Golf, Jetta, Corrado V6, 1.8 Turbo; Corrado G60, New Beetle Turbo

SSC:

Acura Integra 3 door
Alfa Romeo Alfetta, GT, Spider 2000, Milano 2.5
AMC Spirit, DL, GT Liftback 258, 4 spd.
Audi Fox, Coupe, 4000, 5000, 80, 90 (including all Quattros)
BMW all 2.0L and less normally aspirated NOC
Buick Opel Isuzu, Skylark, 1.8 HO or 2.0, Skylark, 23i, Skyhawk, 2.8 HO, 4 spd., Skyhawk Turbo
Chevrolet Chevette, Monza, 4 cyl, Cavalier 4 cyl, Citation 4 cyl, FWD V6, Nova 16v
Datsun/Nissan 210, 310, 510, 610, 710, and F-10, 200SX 2.2 5 spd.
Dodge Colt, Colt Turbo, Daytona, GT2000, Charger2.2, Neon except ACR, 1600, Omni, Challenger 2.5, 024 1.7, 2.2, 2600
Eagle Talon normally aspirated
Fiat 124 Sport Spyder, 131, Spyder 2000, X1/9, 128 Sedan, Strada 1500, 5 spd.
Ford Fiesta, EXP 1.6 HO (non-turbo), Pinto, Escort GT 16V and 4 cyl, Focus 2.0, 2.3, Mustang 4 cyl, V6 1964-1998
Geo Prism GSI, Storm GSI
Honda Civic, Civic Si 1975-2001, CVCC, Accord, CRX, CRX Si, Prelude 2.0
Isuzu I-Mark Coupe, RS
Mazda Protege, 808, 1600, GLC, GLC Sport, 626, 626 Turbo, 323, Miata 1990-1997, RX3, RX4, RX7 1979-1985, MX3, Mazda 3
Mercury Bobcat 2.3, LN7 1.6 HO, Lynx, Tracer LTS, Capri 4 cyl and V6; Tracer LTS
MGB, Midget 1500
Mini Cooper normally aspirated
Mitsubishi Eclipse, Galant normally aspirated; Mirage 8-valve turbo, Lancer Noramlly Aspirated
Nissan 1991 NX 1600 & NX 2000, Nissan 240SX, 200SX Turbo, Pulsar 1.8 DOHC, Sentra SER
Oldsmobile Firenza, 1.8 SOHC, 2.0, Starfire, V6, Omega, 2.8 HO
Opel NOC
Peugeot 505, 505 Turbo, 405 Mi16
Plymouth Laser Normally Aspirated, Horizon, TC-3, Arrow 1600, GT, Champ 1.6
Pontiac Phoenix 2.8 HO, Sunbird Turbo, all 4-cyl NA
Porsche 912, 914 4 cyl
Renault Fuego Turbo, 1.6, Fuego 2.2, LeCar, Alliance, Encore, GTA
Saab 900 and 9000 16V normally aspirated
Saab 99, 900 and 9000 16V normally aspirated
Saturn NOC
Subaru normally aspirated 2.2L and under
Suzuki Swift GTI
Toyota Celica GTS 16v 1982-93, Corolla GTS, FX-16, (1.6 & 2.2), MR2 1985-1989 NA, Corolla, Corona, Starlet 1.3 5spd., Celica, GTS, GT, ST, GT Liftback
Triumph 4-cyl, GT6
Volvo 242/4, GT
VW Rabbit, Golf, GTI, Scirocco, all 8 valve, GTI 16v, Jetta 16v, Scirocco 16v, New Beetle 2.0L

[kfoote]

Here is the proposal that would keep the 1.6L Miatas in their own class:

SSU:

Acura NSX
Audi RS6
BMW E46 M3, M Coupe/Roadster, V8 NOC, V10
Chevrolet Corvette 1991+ NOC
Dodge Stealth Turbo, Viper
Ferrari NOC
Ford Mustang Cobra 2003-2004, 1995, 2000 Cobra R, 2003-04 SVT
Lamborghini, All models
Lotus Esprit 1993+
Mazda RX7 Twin Turbo
Maserati 4.3L and over, Turbo
Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR4 Turbo, Lancer Evolution
Nissan 300ZX V6 Twin Turbo
Pantera
Porsche 911Turbo, 993, 996, 997, 928 GTS
Subaru WRX STi
Toyota Supra Twin Turbo

SSGT:

Acura TL
Audi V8 NA, S6
BMW E36 M3, E46 330, E28, E34 M5; M6; E39 540; Z4 3.0i
Chevrolet Camaro V8, SS Ram Air, 1LE, SLP; Corvette C4 1984-91 except ZR1; V8 NOC
Ferrari 328
Ford Mustang V8 1996-2001 Cobra, 1993 Cobra R, F150 Lightning
Ford V8 1982-2004 Solid Rear Axle, V8 Trucks/SUV's
GM V8 Trucks/SUV's
Honda S2000
Lotus Esprit 1976-1992, Elise S2, Exiege
Maserati 4.2L NA and under
Mercury Capri 302
Nissan 350Z, Altima 3.5, Maxima 3.5
Pontiac Trans Am, Firebird
Porsche 911 3.2L, 944 Turbo, Turbo S, Boxster, Boxster S, 928 5.0L
Subaru WRX 2006+
Toyota MR2 turbo, Supra 3.0 turbo
VW Golf R32

SSA:

Acura Integra Type R, RSX, RSX Type S, TSX
Alfa Romeo GTV-6, Milano 3.0
Audi S4, A4 NOC
BMW E36 328; E46 323, 325, 328; Z3 2.8L, 528, 535, 633, 635, Z4 2.5i, E30 M3
Chrysler Corp., mass-produced FWD Intercooled Turbo, Omni GLH, GLHS
Corvette (solid rear axle)
Datsun/Nissan 280ZX Turbo, 300ZX Turbo 1984-89, 300ZX NA 1990-96
Dodge Stealth normally aspirated
Dodge Neon SRT-4, Omni GLH, GLHS, Shelby Charger Turbo
Ferrari 308
Ford Mustang SVO, V6 1999+
Mazda RX7 13B Turbo, RX8, Mazdaspeed Miata, Mazdaspeed Protégé, Miata 2006+
Mercedes Benz 190E
Mitsubishi 3000 GT normally aspirated
Nissan 300ZX V6 normally aspirated Sentra SER Spec V
Pontiac Solstice
Porsche 911 2.7-3.0L NA, 944S, 944S2, 968, 924 Turbo, 928 4.7L and under
Saab 9000 Aero, Turbo, V6
Saturn Sky
Subaru SVX, WRX 2001-2005
Toyota Celica 4WD Turbo, Supra 2.8
Triumph TR8
Volvo 5-cyl turbo

SSB:

Acura Legend, Integra GSR 1.7, Integra VTEC,
Alfa Romeo Sprint Veloce, Sports Sedan, Milano 2.5,
Audi A4 V6 2.8 and 1.8L turbo
BMW E30 325; E36 318, 325; E39 525, E28, E34 525, Z3 1.9, 2.5
Buick 2.8 HO
Chevrolet Beretta GTZ, Camaro 6 cyl, Monza 2+2
Datsun/Nissan 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, 300ZX 1984-89 NA
Dodge Neon ACR, Neon DOHC
Eagle Talon turbo
Ford 302 Mustang II, Mach I, Cobra II, 4 cyl Turbo; T-bird Turbo, SC; '89 Cougar, Contour, Focus SVT
Ford Taurus SHO, Probe turbo and V6, Mustang V6 1964-1998
Honda Prelude VTEC, Si 92-93; Del Sol VTEC, Civic SI 1996+
Mazda RX7 13B IRS, MX6GT, Miata 1994-2005, RX7 1979-1985
Merkur XR4Ti
Mini Cooper S (supercharged) 2002+
Mitsubishi Eclipse turbo, Galant VR4, Mirage Turbo
Nissan 200SX 3.0, 240Z, 260Z, 280Z, Maxima 3.0L and less, Sentra SER, 240SX
Oldsmobile Starfire Firenza, 305, Quad 4, 2.8 HO
Peugeot 505 Turbo
Plymouth Laser Turbo, Quad 4, Neon ACR, Neon DOHC
Pontiac Trans Am NOC, Fiero V6
Porsche 944 8v, 924S, 924, 911 under 2.4L
Saab 900 2.5L, Turbo
Subaru 2.5L Normally Aspirated
Toyota MR2SC, MR2 NA 1990-1995, MRS, Celica GTS 2000+
Volvo 4 cyl Turbo, 850
VW Golf, Jetta, Corrado V6, 1.8 Turbo; Corrado G60, New Beetle 1.8 Turbo

SSC:

Acura Integra 3 door
Alfa Romeo Alfetta, GT, Spider 2000
AMC Spirit, DL, GT Liftback 258, 4 spd.
Audi Fox, Coupe, 4000, 5000, 80, 90 (including all Quattros)
BMW all 2.0L and less normally aspirated NOC
Buick Opel Isuzu, Skylark, 1.8 HO or 2.0, Skylark, 23i, Skyhawk, 4 spd., Skyhawk Turbo
Chevrolet Chevette, Monza, 4 cyl, Cavalier 4 cyl, Citation 4 cyl, FWD V6, Nova 16v
Datsun/Nissan 210, 310, 510, 610, 710, and F-10, 200SX 2.2 5 spd.
Dodge Colt, Colt Turbo, Daytona, GT2000, Charger2.2, Neon SOHC except ACR, 1600, Omni, Challenger 2.5, 024 1.7, 2.2, 2600
Eagle Talon normally aspirated
Fiat 124 Sport Spyder, 131, Spyder 2000, X1/9, 128 Sedan, Strada 1500, 5 spd.
Ford Fiesta, EXP 1.6 HO (non-turbo), Pinto, Escort GT 16V and 4 cyl, Focus 2.0, 2.3, Mustang 4 cyl
Geo Prism GSI, Storm GSI
Honda Civic, Civic Si 1975-1995, CVCC, Accord, CRX, CRX Si, Prelude 2.0
Isuzu I-Mark Coupe, RS
Mazda Protege, 808, 1600, GLC, GLC Sport, 626, 626 Turbo, 323, Miata 1990-1993, RX3, RX4, MX3, Mazda 3
Mercury Bobcat 2.3, LN7 1.6 HO, Lynx, Tracer LTS, Capri 4 cyl and V6; Tracer LTS
MGB, Midget 1500
Mini Cooper normally aspirated
Mitsubishi Eclipse, Galant normally aspirated; Lancer Noramlly Aspirated
Nissan 1991 NX 1600 & NX 2000, 200SX Turbo, Pulsar 1.8 DOHC,
Oldsmobile Firenza, 1.8 SOHC, 2.0, Starfire, V6, Omega,
Opel NOC
Peugeot 505, 405 Mi16
Plymouth Laser Normally Aspirated, Horizon, TC-3, Arrow 1600, GT, Champ 1.6
Pontiac Phoenix 2.8 HO, Sunbird Turbo, all 4-cyl NA NOC
Porsche 912, 914 4 cyl
Renault Fuego Turbo, 1.6, Fuego 2.2, LeCar, Alliance, Encore, GTA
Saab 900 and 9000 16V normally aspirated
Saab 99, 900 2.0L and 9000 16V normally aspirated
Saturn NOC
Subaru normally aspirated 2.2L and under
Suzuki Swift GTI
Toyota Celica GTS 16v 1982-1993, Corolla GTS, FX-16, (1.6 & 2.2), MR2 1985-1989 NA, Corolla, Corona, Starlet 1.3 5spd., Celica, GTS, GT, ST, GT Liftback
Triumph 4-cyl, GT6
Volvo 242/4, GT
VW Rabbit, Golf, GTI, Scirocco, all 8 valve, GTI 16v, Jetta 16v, Scirocco 16v, New Beetle 2.0L

[christine]

What does NOC mean?

And not that it matters much to me anymore, but the E36 318 (listed as SSB) is a much heavier car with about the same hp as some of the SSC cars. It wouldn't have a chance against most of the SSB cars listed.

Christine

[dinoracer]

NOC= Not Otherwise Classified

Kevin, thanks again for this effort.

Typo? Is there an Audi NSX, or should the first SSU entry be Acura NSX?

Thanks

[kfoote]

NOC= Not Otherwise Classified

Kevin, thanks again for this effort.

Typo? Is there an Audi NSX, or should the first SSU entry be Acura NSX?

Thanks

Yes, NOC is "Not Otherwise Classified" as it is in the current rule book.

...looks like Acura NSX to me.... (fixed)

The E36 318 would not be very competitive in SSB in the secondary proposal, but is significantly faster than the SSC cars. It is in SSC in the primary proposal.

[sillyspheres]

Kevin:

Looks good. While I don't like the RSX Type S in SSA, I can live with it as long as the Type R is classified the same.

One thing I noticed- the Celica GTS is in SSC. This car should at least be in SSB- it has 180 HP and only 2600 lbs. I know that I haven't seen one on the track in my time at COM, but perhaps one day I will steal my girlfriend's 2000 GTS and tear up SSC.

[christine]

The E36 318 would not be very competitive in SSB in the secondary proposal, but is significantly faster than the SSC cars. It is in SSC in the primary proposal.

In boh proposals posted above, it's in SSB.

Christine

[SSNH]

the nissan 1991 nx2000 is the same as a 91-94 se-r; same suspension and motor.

you probably want to move it to ssb in your second proposal if ssc is meant to be a "a playground for the 1.6L Miatas."