2006 Car classification proposal

[WillM]

Kevin, under the proposed Combo of the ST3 and 4 would this make the 1.8 swap into the 1st Gen Miatas legal?

Kevin, under the proposed Combo of the ST3 and 4 would this make the 2.0 swap into the 2nd Gen Sentras legal?

Nope, since current rules do not allow updating/backdating of engines. If the new class structure were to be adopted, then I would propose the following:

COM Sports Car Club
2005 Rules, Regulations and Car Classifications
Rev: 2005-01
OLD RULE
Section X. STREET TOURING
Updating and back-dating of components are not allowed in Street Touring (ST), unless specified below. The original engine (or direct replacement) that was manufactured with the car must be used.

NEW RULE
Updating and back-dating of components are not allowed in Street Touring (ST), unless specified below. [REMOVE: The original engine (or direct replacement) that was manufactured with the car must be used.]

ADD:
Section X. STREET TOURING
9.
Updating and back-dating of engine assembly is allowed provided that the replacement engine was offered in the same make, model, and chassis of the vehicle it is being installed into. Engine assembly is defined as a 'dressed engine' and includes longblock, intake manifold, electronics & wires, belt-driven accessories, and any other OEM-type parts required for the engine to function as it would in its original vehicle. The engine must be a 'drop-in replacement', meaning no alteration of firewall or other sheetmetal is permitted. Engine must be transferred as a unit, mix and matching of parts is prohibited. Cars with updated/back-dated engines are reclassified into the appropriate ST class of the replacement engine.

Purpose for rule change:
The consolidation of similar cars with different-sized engines into the same class has created a disparity between competitors within a given class. This rule closes that gap by effectively allowing a car to move up to its next 'trim level' ie: 'LX' to 'GT'. The addition of this update/back-date rule also compliments the current update/back-date rules of differentials and brakes within the ST class. Furthermore, the addition of this rule promotes the idea of fair competition within the club and helps gain support for the larger overall classification changes. Classes become more populated while and at the same time, one type of car is not benefitted more than another.

[xstar]

Does this mean that I can put in a Mazdaspeed Miata motor (note the turbocharger) in my 1996 Miata?

To me, the 2005 Mazdaspeed Miata and my 1996 Miata is the same model. Just a different trim.

[Grippy]

Yes you could drop in a MS motor but you would be classed as the MS Miata in ST2 (turbo 4 cyl).

That rule makes sense to me. If you drop in a better motor in an inferior chassis you would be classed by the motor. Not much incentive in most cases, but converting a 1.6 Miata to a 1.8 when you are already classed with all the 1.8's is a no brainer.

[kfoote]

Does this mean that I can put in a Mazdaspeed Miata motor (note the turbocharger) in my 1996 Miata?

To me, the 2005 Mazdaspeed Miata and my 1996 Miata is the same model. Just a different trim.

Nope, you're wrong here.

The Mazdaspeed Miata is essentially the same as the 2001+ Miatas, not the 1996. By that reasoning, a 1969 Porsche 911 is the same as a 2004 996 GT2, and can run that motor because they're all 911's.

In the proposal, the Mazdaspeed Miata is classified on its own.

[rajito]

My 1.8T Audi (ST2) is 'chipped', increasing hp/tq from 150hp/180ft-lb to 200hp/245ft-lb, an increase of 50hp and 65ft-lbs, respectively. .... The rule, as it is currently written, favors newer cars with more robust factory ECUs, especially those with turbos.

We had a discussion about this amongst the turbo Subaru guys last year. Many tuner chips/reflashes get power by increasing the boost. I think boost control is not allowed under the current rules in ST, but it is almost impossible for a COM steward to detect that a chip/reflash increases the boost.

1. Should we still ban ECUs/piggybacks from adjusting boost, given that nobody can enforce it?

2. If we allow 1., should manual boost controllers be allowed, since they do the same thing?

Raj

[WillM]

Does this mean that I can put in a Mazdaspeed Miata motor (note the turbocharger) in my 1996 Miata?

To me, the 2005 Mazdaspeed Miata and my 1996 Miata is the same model. Just a different trim.

Actually X, as the rule is written above, you might be allowed to drop in the MazdaSpeed turbo motor. As Grippy said, and if it were legal, you'd then be classed in ST2 (as opposed to ST4). <- There is the rub.

Whether the swap would be ST2 legal or not would depend on the interpretation of chassis'.

I do not know if Mazda actually adopted different chassis codes or not, but the NA/NB/NC are the terms floating around enthusiast websites:
(the first two letters of the VIN)
1990-1997 cars are coded as "NA"
1999-2005 cars are coded as "NB"
2006+ 'all new' Miata is coded as "NC"

That said, the NA and NB chassis parts are interchangeable. Most of the body parts are not, but the chassis is. From what I've read and the part numbers I have ordered, the NB chassis part numbers superceed the NA ones, which is to say if you order a suspension arm, subframe, powerplant frame, 1.8 brake component, etc., for your "NA" Miata, you get the "NB" part. Other than the sheetmetal and headlights, the biggest differences are the top, upper shock mounts ('top hats'), interior, and steering rack. That said, the chassis and tubs are the same (save the attached rear quarters and trunk pan), and all of those parts can be bolted onto the chassis the earlier cars. I have even seen at least one person swap the interior and another swap the front end and headlights. All of the suspension mounting points are the same across the 1990-2005 cars. The newer parts have extra mounting locations (holes) for additional bracing that were not in some of the previous years, as Mazda routinely added and subtracted various suspension braces over the years.

X does bring up a potential loophole, and we are all aware of the need to clearly state rules. Perhaps the rule, if/when proposed, should be more specific by stating:

Updating and back-dating of engine assembly is allowed provided that the replacement engine was offered in the same make, model, chassis, and body style of the vehicle it is being installed into.

This could either be beneficial (or counter productive) in some cases. For example, if a certain engine was only availiable in a coupe version and you have a sedan, you could not use the coupe's engine.

Thoughts????

I welcome any and all insight on the above! Thanks!

[WillM]

1. Should we still ban ECUs/piggybacks from adjusting boost, given that nobody can enforce it?

2. If we allow 1., should manual boost controllers be allowed, since they do the same thing?

Raj

You bring up a good point.

On my Audi, I could swap between the factory setting and the higher boost setting while sitting on the grid. Detection would be invisible, since the switch is done by holding in and pressing a combination of factory switches. The intent is to make the chip totally invisible to car dealers who are all too quick to void warranties. If a dealer can't see the 'chip' programming by visual inspection or by connecting to the ECU's diagnostic port, then there is no way a COM Steward or competitor would find it...

Along those lines, should we allow aftermarket flywheels and clutches, since sience has yet to develope a transparent bellhousing?

Rules like these are like mini-padlocks on suitcases. They keep the honest people honest. O:)

I think it is threads like these that leave some long-standing COM members in fear of 'rules creep'! :bom:

[brucesallen]

Raj,
I agree that an add-on adjustable boost controller is the same as chipping and should be allowed. Propose it.

[rajito]

Raj,
I agree that an add-on adjustable boost controller is the same as chipping and should be allowed. Propose it.

I proposed it using the form on the main page. \:D/ :salute:

Raj

[SillySpheres]

Under my proposal, the RSX-S would go into SSA.

Actually Kevin, your proposal said SSB for the RSX, unless I am reading it wrong. The RSX is in SSA right now, but your system would (correctly IMO) bump it down one level.

[Crusin]

Hey Will

Should that be: "1.6 liters of frivilous power"

[kfoote]

Under my proposal, the RSX-S would go into SSA.

Actually Kevin, your proposal said SSB for the RSX, unless I am reading it wrong. The RSX is in SSA right now, but your system would (correctly IMO) bump it down one level.

The RSX is in SSB, the RSX-S in in SSA in the latest version of my proposal. There is enough performance difference between the two to warrant putting them in different clases. There are a few cars that have been added to the proposal posted here, and I may move a car or two around depending on what the analysis of who would have finished where in the championships ends up. From what I've come up with so far, I believe only 3 champions would change, and only the 2004 SSC champion, Robert Ready, who ran 3 of the 4 events he entered unopposed in SSC, would have finished any lower than 2nd in their new class. I'm hoping to have the final analysis of at least the 2004 season finished tonight.

[WillM]

Hey Will

Should that be: "1.6 liters of frivilous power"

Takes one to know one! :tweety:
:withstupid:

[Crusin]

Since i am running a Canary on a treadmill :tweety: , is running parakeet seed for more power considered ill eagle? :dontknow:

[kfoote]

Here are how the 2004 points would have loked under my proposal:

STGT:
James Price BMW 381ti 11 11 11 11 11 11 9 11 86
Gregg Metzger Chevrolet Corvette 9 11 20
Alison Hine Lotus Esprit 9 9
Barry Gagne Subaru WRX Sti 9 9
Bill Gould BMW M3 9 9

ST1:
Mark Litzerman BMW M3 9 9 11 11 9 11 9 69
James McNamara Mazda RX7 TT 11 9 9 11 40
Brian Stonkus Ford Mustang RS3 5 7 11 23
Nick Efremow Porsche 944T 7 2 2 9 20
Craig Herrick Ford Mustang Cobra 2 2 3 7 5 19
Jeremy Gay Chevrolet Camaro SS ILE 2 5 7 14
Mario Bonacorsi Porsche 911 3 3 5 2 13
David Butler Lotus Exige 5 7 12
Mark Starr Lotus Exige 7 5 12
Michael Eisenberg Porsche 944T 7 5 12
James Kekeisen Mazda RX7 11 11
Stephen Ayers BMW M3 11 11
Daniel D'Arcy Ford Mustang Cobra 3 2 3 8
George House Ford Mustang 2 2 4
Joel Adams Pontiac Trans Am 3 3
Scott Benavides Ford Mustang Cobra 3 3
Dan Chadwick BMW M-Coupe 2 2
Jim Remy BMW M3 E36 2 2
Mike Bingham Ford Mustang Cobra 2 2
Richard Murphy Audi S6 2 2

ST2:
Alex Teng Subaru WRX 9 11 11 3 9 7 9 11 70
Michael Demopoulos BMW E30 M3 11 9 11 31
Jason Marotta Subaru WRX 11 9 20
Victor Smart Subaru Impreza WRX 7 3 5 15
Fred Ferguson BMW E30 M3 11 11
Jeff McCarthy Porsche 968 11 11
Arlan Pool BMW M3 9 9
William Howe BMW M3 9 9
Jason Carroll Subaru WRX Wagon 7 7
Michael Papageorgiou Dodge SRT-4 Neon 7 7
Tom Sheehan Porsche 911 7 7
Brian Smith BMW 5 5
Joseph Lu Subaru WRX 5 5
Mike Demopoulos BMW M3 5 5
Piotr Ucher Subaru Impreza WRX 5 5
Ann Hammitte BMW M3 2 2 4
Brian Stonkus Lightning 3 3
Patrick McParland Subaru WRX 3 3
Peter McParland Subaru WRX 2 2

ST3:
Carl Fossum Mazda RX7 11 11 11 11 11 55
Frank Flanagan Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX 7 5 9 7 11 39
Enrique Balaguer BMW 325 I 9 9 9 9 36
Paul Kalinoski Saab 9000 turbo 7 7 11 11 36
Kevin Foote Mazda Miata 9 7 16
Dan Guliano BMW 325 i x 5 7 12
Bob Brady Alfa Romeo GTV 9 9
Edward Sawyer Honda Accord 9 9
Richard Sorensen Honda Civic SI 3 5 8
James Kulp Mini Cooper S 7 7
Eugene Gaudreau Toyota MR2 Spyder 3 3
James Kaplan Datsun 260z 3 3

ST4:
Mark Swinehart Nissan Sentra SER 7 9 9 2 9 9 11 9 65
Lee Walsh Mazda Miata 5 7 11 9 11 5 7 5 60
Stephen Pope Mazda Miata 11 2 3 11 7 3 2 39
Stephen Hosker Mazda Miata 2 3 2 7 9 7 30
Matt Daniels Mazda Miata 2 5 5 3 2 5 22
Will Martins Mazda Miata 2 3 7 5 2 3 22
Scott Swinehart Nissan Sentra SER 9 11 20
Carl Fossum Nissan Sentra SE-R 11 11
Gordon Andrade Mazda Miata 2 2 5 2 11
Michael J Campbell Dodge Daytona 11 11
Sean McKnight Ford Focus ZX3 7 7
David Damon Honda CRX 2 2 2 6
Jeffrey Strong Ford Focus ZX3 2 3 5
Mike Carr Mazda Miata 3 2 5
Ryan Thieme Madza Miata LS 2 2 4
Brian Stonkus Mazda Miata 2 2
Chris Rich Jr. VW GTI 2 2
Joel Weaver BMW 2002 2 2
Mario Bonacorsi Mazda Miata 2 2
Mark Wheatley Mazda Miata 2 2
Mark Wilson Neon 2 2
Michael Ostrander Mazda Miata 2 2


SSU:
Rajan Parthasarathy Subaru WRX Sti 5 11 9 9 11 7 9 61
Kevin Holmes Mitsubishi Evo 11 9 11 31
Dean Clark Chevrolet Corvette ZO-6 9 11 9 29
Stephen Smith Lotus Esprit S4s 11 7 18
Laurence Jitts Porsche 996 9 7 16
Frank Cullen Subaru Sti 11 11
Michael Woods Corvette 11 11
Bradford Pielech Mtisubishi Lancer Evo VIII 2 7 9
Alison Hine Lotus Esprit Turbo 7 7
Jay Holeman Corvette 7 7
Kristian Taylor Chevrolet Corvette 7 7
Andrew Schnellinger Subaru WRX Sti 5 5
Roland Glassman Chevrolet Corvette 5 5
Ilya Belobokov BMW M3 3 3

SSGT:
Michael Geldart Nissan 350 Z 11 11 11 9 9 11 62
Andrew Lewman BMW 540i 9 9 9 27
Michael Fridmann Lotus Esprit Turbo 9 7 11 27
Louis Milinazzo Chevrolet Camaro Z28 11 9 20
Mike Fridman Lotus Esprit 11 11
Sandy Bugai Porsche 928 11 11

SSA:
Tim Drumm Chevrolet Malibu 11 9 7 7 9 43
Pat Larkin Subaru WRX 11 11 11 9 42
Tom Krueger Audi S4 9 11 11 31
Jason Russo Subaru WRX Wagon 9 11 20
Edmund Presby Subaru WRX 11 11

SSB:
Michael Campbell Dodge Daytona 7 11 11 11 9 49
Kenneth Smith Nissan Maxima 9 11 11 31
James Kalinoski Saab 900 3 3 5 9 20
Mark Chase Mini Cooper S 5 7 7 19
Kevin Brooke Mazda Miata 9 5 14
Andrew Lewman BMW 325is 11 11
Jeff McCarthy Porsche 944 11 11
Kevin Foote Mazda Miata 9 9
Matt Brooke Mazda Miata 9 9
James Cognetta Porsche 944 7 7
James Hartnett Mini Cooper S 7 7
Paul Shearer Mazda Miata 5 5

SSC:
Stephan de Penasse Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 9 11 7 9 36
Dennis Friedman Mazda Miata 11 9 9 29
Carl Fossum Mazda Miata 11 11 22
Robert Ready Ford Escort 2 5 3 7 17
Tina Carr Mazda Miata 11 5 16
Haydn Taylor Mazda Miata 7 5 12
Fred Sanford Mazda Miata 11 11
Frank Sordillo Mazda Miata 7 2 9
Michael Mayo-Smith Nissan Sentra SE-R 9 9
John Bradshaw BMW 318ti 7 7
Gregg Metzger Subaru Legacy 3 3
Ilya Tsymbal Mazda Miata 2 2