Official 2014 Street Prepared/Prepared/Super Class Thread

[McMahonRacing]

Pretty sure you knew what I was getting at w/ NHMS being what it is ... transitions are not friendly there in anything !!

" As far as aerodynamics and handling factors between closed wheel cars (ff vs corvette), isn't the idea of the super class to be run what you brung? "

------ Not w/ rules as proposed, My point is really that the new rule set ( a basic mirror image of NASA ) they are developing is pointing to the fact that they believe the cars to be equal and based on reality the NASA ST2 classing is yielding a solid 4-6 sec. gap min. & our WGI COM results w/ a 6 sec. gap back that up ( they don't run the ST2 Vettes @ NHMS as they are too low, they have been running the Silver Vette ( currently under transformation too an ST2 legal car )) ... basically, it points to just one of several flaws in the rules as proposed and the only way to fix it we don't have the man power etc etc to make it happen ........ when you start putting hp/wt factors in place ie: Super Classes, then run what ya brung goes out the window .......... right ? PA as it was, was run what ya brung, only rule was no jucie.

Sam, glad someone agree's w/ me cause from what I have been told the Touring rules are the greatest thing since sliced bread for everyone ...... unfortunalty, I just don't agree but that is just my opinion from the outside looking in, so it is what it is.

[naschmitz]

Should we have a TO class? Time Only? I ran an airport autocross down here and signed up for that class rather than figure out where my car fit in their SCCA-derivative class structure. That would clearly be run what you brung.

[TroyV]

Did you win?

[breakaway500]

"Should we have a TO class? Time Only?"

I agree. I think it would be nice to have a "class" for those who would like an officially timed and recorded time trial,but do not wish to enter into the actual competition,for whatever reason. Shouldn't be too hard to compose...as there would be no stipulations, other than safety requirements. I was thinking OTO= Official Time Only.

[dtlemoine]

"Should we have a TO class? Time Only?"

I agree. I think it would be nice to have a "class" for those who would like an officially timed and recorded time trial,but do not wish to enter into the actual competition,for whatever reason. Shouldn't be too hard to compose...as there would be no stipulations, other than safety requirements. I was thinking OTO= Official Time Only.

Register for any event in PA/FP in the current ruleset or SU in the proposed ruleset.

[McMahonRacing]

We can't do TO or an Open class based on times ..... just go back to last years discussion when similar theories were proposed and shot down automatically as they didn't conform to the rules proposal .... that and if I remember right, w/ a any timed based system our club pres. said he would resign and leave the club, or something to that nature ....

[962porsche]

i have been watching this post with much interest and keeping my mouth shut but just keeping classes to a power to weight will not work on classing all the cars .
there are just to many other factors that can and will make a car turn a fast lap time at any track .
there are the brakes , tires , rims size , suspension ( types ) , balance ( lay out of the chassis ) ,aero a tunnel car to a flat bottom car to a standered cars under side then tops side aero , and on and on .

i have said this many times in the past that the class rules as they are now need to change for the upper classes !

[wizzman]

We can't do TO or an Open class based on times ..... just go back to last years discussion when similar theories were proposed and shot down automatically as they didn't conform to the rules proposal .... that and if I remember right, w/ a any timed based system our club pres. said he would resign and leave the club, or something to that nature ....

A single time only class is very different than what you are referring to that was suggested last year which was basically bracket racing. That is breaking up the classes by the times you actually run. This is classing based on driver not car. I would follow the president right out the door if we switched to a system like that.

[chaos4NH]

Thank you Pat! I have been saying that since the first Touring class proposals. As I have said: IF I put all the parts in my car necessary to be NEAR the fastest T60 cars, I would no longer have a T60 car. I see the Super classes as creating MORE disparity among cars in a given class.

Sam - when are we going to see the red carpet revealing of the MS3 in 2013?! It looks like you had some 1:22's at Chicane/Chicane back in the day which would have landed you 2nd place at NHMS1 this year...I don't think you are as far off as you might think.

However, I have to say that your classification situation this year in T60 with the MS3 is significantly better than it was under the SS/ST rules. The e36 M3 was SSA/ST2 where the MS3 was SSGT/ST1 along with the e46 M3. With a fairly common ST build and good tires on an e46 M3, you are looking at a car that points out to around 95-100 points, at the top of T90. This means that you are getting a 3 class advantage over what you could have faced under the SS/ST rules. Just look at what Joe Lu did to the ST1 record books when he has a moderate ST build, which is about ~92 points.

The MS3 came under a huge disadvantage when, in 2012, we started the lbs/hp reshuffling. Until that point it (and other cars) were more correctly classed as ST2. It was the ARBITRARY ADJUSTMENT TO ST1 that began this whole
scenario that lbs/hp was the deciding factor with no consideration to drive train layout, etc. The MS3 came into being for the model year 2007 as an answer to the Honda SI, Cooper S and other "hot Hatches" which, at that time were classed as SSB/ST3. It was never meant to compete with 350/370Z's, Porsche Boxter S, STI's, etc. Built to the pre 2012 ST rules it was ST2 for suspension and CAI only, and that recognized the fact that the other "hot Hatches" weren't so hot As Gordy would say "HP is only a crutch" but due to the basic design of the car, the crutch was broken.
Listen, I am not saying another, better, driver could not beat my times, but simply feel that lbs/hp should not be the final word in base classing cars.

Get out the red carpet at NJMP

[breakaway500]

"Register for any event in PA/FP in the current ruleset or SU in the proposed ruleset."

Nope..not the same as having a separate "class" for official time only entrants,as participation in one of the points governed classes could affect the driver/class points given to participating competitors,based on car counts etc etc...and I don't want to have any effect on those competing.
I'n NOT saying set up a class to be an "open class" or bracket racing class,..just have a noncompetitive "class" or option, for an officially scored time for record for that event,with no trophies,no points nothing, but a duly recorded official time for participating in time trials by an attendee,that's all.
I think the club use to have a classification for competing for FTD only,and did not affect individual classes.

[dradernh]

Pretty sure you knew what I was getting at w/ NHMS being what it is ... transitions are not friendly there in anything !!

Actually, that's not true. I've been out in more than one E36 M3 with the standard pillow-soft setup and they're remarkably composed through the double-bang! T10 transitions and in T11, both turns where I have to wait forever to go to full throttle, and these other cars are on the throttle hard all the way through T10 and immediately after the apex in T11. 'Tis a wonder to behold!

[dtlemoine]

Nope..not the same as having a separate "class" for official time only entrants,as participation in one of the ruling classes could affect the points given to participating competitors,based on car counts etc etc...and I don't want to have any effect on those competing. I think the club use to have a classification for competing for FTD only,and did not affect individual classes. That was before my time,though,so I'm not sure...

Given that besides Bruce, from 2011-1013 in 18 events we've only had 3 other drivers compete in FP, and those 3 drivers combined to only participate in 4 events, I'm not sure the points argument really has merit. I sincerely doubt you'd make much of an impact on the overall standings.

For that matter just run in your appropriate "P" class - if you're not concerned with winning and taking home a trophy, who cares what letters are on your tech sheet and on the side of your car on the morning of day 2?!?

There are plenty of people in the club that would be happy to help class cars and complete paperwork for folks who are less interested in the competition - the argument that the rules are too confusing or time consuming just isn't valid. If you're truly not concerned with the competition, have a scrutineer class your car during tech in the morning and forget about it for the rest of the weekend. If you like to tinker, bump yourself up a class so you'll never have to worry about it again.

[962porsche]

the thing about a FRONT DRIVE cars like sam's speed 3 being out classed is just not true at all .
yes we have all heard the BS about there handling and the down sides to front drive .
that is old thinking . they do have some disadvantages but they also have advantades .
look at the BTCC AND THE WTCC and all the car manfactures changing over the front drive insted of the rear drive cars .
as for sams speed 3 it handles like crap just pushing the car on the street on my way home and back to the shop the next day tells me that car has to be hell on the track when your totaly free to push it real hard .
but that is just because of bad set up of the suspension if the cars suspension was setup right the car would i bet turn a 1.5 to 2 seconds a lap faster time at NHMS .

but this posting should be about prepared classes and not the T-classes ? as i think the T classes are good but could use some more tweaking and adding cars to the list of base cars .

[McMahonRacing]

Read carefully back a few posts, when it was indicated they researched cars based on the past 5 yrs of COM data to develop the classes, they looked at time spread ... then called it a class & worked the rules to define the cars in that range, you are in fact bracket racing now it is just called Touring ... the proposition based on a time structure last year was simply saying use a say 4-6 spread - see who runs in that window - call that a class of x - y, you dominate you move up a time range ( no rules, simply based on the performance as seen in reality, as the timing system was in place to generate the necessary data) all the rules did was create a whole bunch of stuff to effectively do the same thing .... from what I have seen most classes right now have a min. spread of 6 sec. w/ the majority being 7-8 sec. and the remainder up to 30 sec. bracket racing w/o the terms ......but, let's not get off topic as Touring is what Touring is

Transitions, yes I agree, guess I am not being clear enough .... NHMS has very few "straights", so aero/body don't seem to be a big factor compared to say WGI, NHMS is more of a handling track ( ie: gokart ) than say WGI which is more an Aero track, hp has it place at both to differing degrees and NHMS has some transitions that are just flat out rough and really effect some cars more than others ( gokarts gotta feel the bumps ).

TO class, better yet how about a "TO run group" just like NASA TT, COM has the fancy timing equipment, keep the run group reasonable ( say 9 +/- cars all w/in a reasonable time spread, allow to them to pass like Instructors, then let them run for 30 min or more ) and let them have at it.

[breakaway500]

"For that matter just run in your appropriate "P" class'

Let's say I bring my "T70" ,T50 or T100 "level" car,and just want an officially timed score on record,without entering into the official competition aspect of the event. I certainly can't run in the Prepared classes without a lot of extra safety gear. I'm not thinking of just myself...

If some of this "rules" energy could only be applied to getting the licenses processed,everyone would have had theirs the day they paid their yearly dues...