Official 2014 Street Prepared/Prepared/Super Class Thread

[blindsidefive0]

COM Members –

As many of you know, the COMSCC Board of Directors and membership undertook the monstrous task of creating, refining, and implementing an entirely new rule set to govern COMSCC Time Trial competition. At its core, this rule set was developed to replace all COMSCC classes with either Touring (points-based) or Super (pure power/weight based) classes. With generally positive feedback on the Touring classes and mixed feedback on the Super classes, the BoD decided it would be prudent to put the Touring classes to a membership vote while deferring any voting on the Super classes until 2014. In the interim, the BoD decided to retain the existing Prepared and Street Prepared classes.

In 2013 we are now seeing the Touring classes play out with several heated battles in multiple classes both at individual events and in overall season standings. However, we are faced with the question of what to do with the existing Street Prepared and Prepared classes. At a high level, there are 3 options:

1) Retain Street Prepared and Prepared classes for 2014
2) Remove Street Prepared and retain only Prepared classes for 2014 – with or without changes (e.g. turbos)
3) Replace Street Prepared and Prepared classes with weight/power-based Super classes

Options 1 and 2 are straight forward and need no further explanation, and changes to Prepared can easily be handled through the existing rule change submission process at the conclusion of the season. However, given the sweeping changes that a weight/power based Super class system would result in, Option 3 should be vetted and tested publicly during the 2nd half of the season. To get things started, I have worked with interested members and BOD members to draft a starting place for discussions about a set of Super Classes, outlined below:

So how is this different than last year? We have heard feedback from all corners of COM members, some of which is not always compatible and/or in conflict. However, the Super Class proposal contains changes to address some of the actionable feedback received:

- Number of classes: the October 2012 proposal contained only Super Unlimited, Super A, and Super B; we have now increased the number of classes from 3 to 5, including more options for lower weight/power ratio cars
- Simplicity: part of the “run what you’ve brung” nature of COM was lost with some of the weight/power adjustment factors; this is mitigated at least slightly by the removal of performance adjustments/multipliers for tire size, tire compound, drivetrain layout, body style for non-formula cars, and absolute weight adjustment – now the classing is just based on horsepower, torque, and weight for non-formula cars
- Enforcement: perhaps the most tangible objective critique of last year’s Super classes was the lack of enforcement; accordingly requirements for dyno sheets were added as was the alternate power and weight calculator
- Alternate calculators: for those who want to tweak with their motors, they are free to use the new power calculator in lieu of providing a dyno sheet; unless you bolt on a turbo or increase your displacement, with this option you won’t be changing class if you make modifications to your motor

The Basics: Cars will be classified based on an Adjusted Weight/Power Figure. The sole factors in determining this figure are: horsepower, torque, competition weight (weight of vehicle + driver, gear, fluids, etc. at the conclusion of the Time Trial), and an adjustment for open wheel formula-style vehicles. All other modifications, including drivetrain, gearbox, suspension, aero, brakes, interior, and tires are entirely free and have absolutely zero bearing on classification.

The Classes: The current Super Class proposal contains 5 classes:

- Super Unlimited: 6.5 and below (e.g. Formula Continental)
- Super A: 6.5 to 9.0 (e.g. FF Cobra with built motor)
- Super B: 9.0 to 12.25 (e.g. built e30 M3 with significant weight reduction)
- Super C: 12.25 to 16 (e.g. the fastest NA Miata in the club)
- Super D: 16.0 and above (e.g. Spec Miata that doesn’t like Touring…)

Note – the range within each class is between 30-38%, increasing slightly with each class

The Formula:
- Competition Weight / “Power” + Open Wheel Adjustment Factor (if applicable) = Adjusted Weight / Power Figure
- “Power” = 2/3 wheel horsepower + 1/3 wheel torque

Note – proposed Open Wheel Formula = -2.5 (e.g. Formula Continental), proposed Open Wheel Formula w/o front or rear wing = -1.0 (e.g. Formula Vee)

How does a competitor “prove” their power figure?: There are two methods: in the case of a protest or track record, a competitor can either A) provide a dyno sheet substantiating the claimed power figure, or B) utilize a simple displacement-based calculator to estimate potential power.

Option B:
Power = Displacement multiplier x Valves/Cylinder Multiplier x RPM Multiplier x Forced Induction Multiplier
- Displacement Multiplier: 90/1L
- Valves/Cylinder Multiplier: 2v/cylinder is 0.85, 4v/cylinder is 1.0, rotary is 1.0
- RPM Multiplier: ((Max RPM – 6000) / 6000) + 1
- Forced Induction Multiplier: 1.75

The goal of the calculator is not to precisely calculate the power of every engine; instead it is to provide a reasonable “ceiling” for engine potential for those competitors not wishing to provide a dyno sheet.

How does a competitor “prove” their weight figure? COM holds multiple events each year at NHMS where scales are free and available. Given that these are the most popular events on the schedule, getting cars weighed has not been an issue with the 2013 Touring Classes. However, if scales are not available, other attestation/documentation can be provided – for example, a print out of a corner weighting sheet or even a smart phone pic of the car on a set of scales would suffice.

Similar to the Power figure, a competitor does not necessarily have to declare their weight. If this is the case, they can apply the following rules:
- Production car with known curb weight: Competition Weight = 80% x Curb Weight
- Open Wheel Formula Style vehicle: 1000lb
- All other vehicles: 1500lb

Again, the goal with the alternate method is not 100% accuracy; instead it provides a reasonable "floor" in cases where a competitor does not want to provide the weight of their vehicle.

What’s next: This proposal is not a done deal, and no one wants to jam this down the throat of the membership if they do not like it. We would like to have an open discussion about the option of Super Classes beginning both on this forum and at the upcoming NHMS2 event. With membership cooperation, we will reach out to identify potential Super Class competitors this weekend to do a “mock class run” either during the timed practice sessions and/or TT in addition to the official time trial results. We will then post the results and continue the discussion. At this point everything is up for grabs, so constructive input is welcome.

[brucesallen]

I am strongly in favor of deep sixing the SP and P classes of today with their silly classification methods in favor of
"3) Replace Street Prepared and Prepared classes with weight/power-based Super classes"

Just a word on Formula Car adjustments: The SCCA has seven formula car classes- F600, Formula Volkswagaon (FV), Formula Ford/Fit (FF), Formula Enterprises (FE), Formula Continental (FC) (also FF2000 in the pro serieis), and Formula Atlantic (FA). At NHMS South Oval their records run from 1:00 to 1:17 laps. Big difference. Power to weight can be easily determined and applied to the Super class rather than some simpler adjustment. And, of course there are faster cars that have run with COM. IN the 90s we had a member running in Indy Lights run sometimes with us with a Methanol engine. And three years ago, Gary Cheney ran at Tremblant and Calabogie with a real indycar into which he had fit a 400 hp NASCAR six cyl engine.

[blazer178]

well I usually do not get involved with what is going on with the classes because I enjoyed being able to run what I brought. In PA I did know what I was going to be up against with what cars that ran in the class but as I see it now with my hp to weight ratio I will have to be racing against the Formula Atlantic cars or something very similar . With that said at least in PA I did know that on any given day I could beat most but now as I see it I would have absolutely no chance on any given day.
Also are far as taking the curb weight for production car for this class just seems like if you are going to do that then they should be in a touring class. Just me thinking.
I do understand that people want to get closer competition for the time trails and that ok because I do not run with COM a lot so it is just my thought.

[McMahonRacing]

Ran w/ COM for many yrs., my car fit SPA ( if I put the windshield in - as it is still street legal - registered and insured in the State of NH ) as well as PA .... I chose PA so I didn't have to deal w/ rules and, just as Butch says I knew what I was up against and had a ball chasing the rabbits ..... to me replacing a set of imperfect rules w/ another set that won't work makes no sense ( you can read my opinions on the proposed new rules in other posts ) .... so, if I were to run a TT w/ COM again ( will stick w/ NASA and those non functional rules for the time being as having a license that allows me to run all across the US w/ nearly any sanctioning body & no passing rules has a greater attraction at the moment ) I don't think I would be changing anything ( ie: Choice # 1 ) ...... just my .02 that isn't worth that any more either .....

[breakaway500]

I have to laugh when I read posts about people removing speed equipment,detuning and running street tires because they won't "fit" into a specific "class". It seems so..counterproductive to me

I do everything I possibly can (afford) to make my ride faster,and don't really care if I am first or last in whatever "class" I end up in. That is how I have been since the first time I rode a bicycle; faster is fun. It never was about "beating" someone else...it was just fun to go..faster! Friendly "competition" was just that; friendly.

As far as I am concerned,every car is in the same class on track: 4 wheels.

Classing by car color works fine for me...

Maybe they could add a classification for just an officially timed run,with no trophies,no points,no rules.. etc. Call it OTO: official time only,as I do like having an officially scored record of my times to see my progress (or lack of..) and would hate to disrupt those in "classes" who are more serious about competing against one another.

[naschmitz]

My problem with the old rules were the gaps between classes. That is, with non-DOT tires on my car it was not legal in any class. If the rules for Super are simpler and don't have gaps like that, I think it's a win.

Explanation: non-DOT tires were illegal in SPA, but my car did not have equipment required to run in PA.

I fit into T100 for the moment, but if I do something that bumps me to Super I hope I could run there. With my street car I drive to work everyday. Without having to turn it into a track only car.

For the record, I fit into NASA TT3.

[C5toSM]

Nick et al,

I applaud your efforts and look forward to participating in the discussions and the mock Time Trial.

As the club President I usually stay out of these discussions and observe, but I AM going to add my comments as a COM member: I have participated in all but 5 COM Time Trials and the past 11 seasons. I have participated in multiple classes. Nate Hine and I have shared a car for most of that time. We chose to move from PC to the T40 (new touring rules) in 2013 because we thought the competition would be closer. It Is. It has been fierce in T40 as it has been across most of the Touring Classes. I am thoroughly satisfied with the change and I have expectations of a similar result with the Super classes. I anxiously await the change and It is likely that Nate and I would switch to a SUPER class for 2014.

See you all this weekend!

John

[blindsidefive0]

Below are the mock Super Class results from the NHMS-2 Chicane/Chicane time trial in the rain. I was able to get information about all but 1 driver, which I estimated below. Just for fun, I've added some other Super Class competitors' cars to the bottom for comparison - we are working with limited information so please feel free to let me know if I've made any errors, or if you would like me to add you to the list. Despite the low turnout for the TT, it was good to get feedback from members - please continue to post here to let us know what you think after seeing these mock results/classing.

Super Unlimited - no entrants

Super A
1st - Bill McMahon, Austin Healy 3000 MK, 1:43.8

Super B
1st - Fred Ferguson, BMW E30 M3, 1:28.7
2nd - Joe Ascoli, Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VIII, 1:28.9
3rd - Fred Kim, BMW 318is, 1:44.7

Super C
1st - Will Martins, Mazda Miata, 1:28.1
2nd - Gordon Andrade, Mazda Miata, 1:33.2
3rd - Kevin Belden* (estimated), Protoform P-1, 1:38.2
4th - Blaine Stine, 7's Only Mazda GT, 1:40.7

Super D - no entrants

Potential Super Class competitors that did not complete a TT at NH2:
Super U - Charles King
Super U - Charley Farley
Super U - Bruce Allen
Super A - James Laughlin
Super A - Dana Johnston* (estimated)
Super A - Chad Fox's STi
Super A - some T90+ cars
Super A/B - Mike/Mark in their vettes, depending on exact setup
Super B - Doug Rader
Super B - Kevin Foote
Super B - some T80+ cars
Super C - Nate/John's Frankenspec
Super C - Brendan
Super C - some T60+ cars
Super D - any of those Formula Vee's
Super D - Spec Miata
Super D - some T30-T60 cars

Edit - added Brendan to Super C

[McMahonRacing]

I think you are spending way too much time looking at calculators and not enough time looking at reality:

Bill McMahon --- in Super A, yea Hp/Wt would say that, the reality of it is however, the car is physically not that fast period, I have driven it & I know.
Butch --- in SU, yea Hp/Wt would say that, the reality of it is that truck isn't competitive w/ an open wheel formula car

Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to drive an over powered rocket, both these guys can drive and do a hell of a job handling them dare I say much better than the vast majority, but I don't feel they could ever be competitive in those respective classes, just look at history on them and plot their times, it just isn't there.

Freddy --- in Super B, yep hp/wt again, funny, prob. the fastest "car" at present in the club and he is in Super B two classes lower than what is suppose to be the very fastest group

Now, if I were to actually class my car it would run at most Super B, fine for me right near my rabbit & I never really cared anyway but, what does that say for the folks that have to run against me other than Freddy do they really have a fair chance running against me or for that matter Freddy ..... now I put my big motor back in and run even faster in Super A, you would have me classed against Dad, again given history ( & I have plenty of it w/ him ) it certainly isn't a practical race even if I drove his car.

Personally, I don't care and I have no longer have a car in this discussion .... but, think about do you really see this making sense for all or is just the select few that need to be kept happy, change for the sake of change really isn't a great idea ... I do understand your intentions are good and theory is there, it just doesn't work in reality ...... heck, even NASA a balancing factor to apply to cars ( it doesn't work in reality, but they try ) .

So much for me keeping my big mouth shut.

[dradernh]

At 2893# competition weight, my adjusted weight/power numbers slot me well into Super B with:

Dent Sport Dyno Dynamics – 261.47 Combined HP & Torque – 11.06 Adjusted P/W
Granite State Dynojet 224 – 294.59 Combined HP & Torque –– 9.82 Adjusted P/W

Ruminations

1 – Using a Dyno Dynamics, if I raise my weight by 309# to 3202#, I'll come in at 12.25 and can run in Super C with Will and Gordon. Cost: Slight. Thoughts: Miatas? Really?
2 – If I raise my combined HP & torque to 321.55 on the Dynojet, I can remain in Super B at 9.00. Cost: Prohibitive. Thoughts: I'm done developing this car, so what will be will be.

[blindsidefive0]

I think you are spending way too much time looking at calculators and not enough time looking at reality:

Joking aside, as a BOD member and one of the original authors of the rules, I consider it one of my responsibilities to look at as many sides as possible, including both reality (i.e. the mock classing with real cars and real drivers at a real event) and theory. In posting the mock results, I have attempted to outline both in this thread. Creating a classing structure based on one but not the other doesn’t make a lot of sense – if you don’t look at the actual results, theories may not play out the way they were intended; if you only look at existing results, you may not create a classing system that can stand the test of time.

Bill McMahon --- in Super A, yea Hp/Wt would say that, the reality of it is however, the car is physically not that fast period, I have driven it & I know.

Butch --- in SU, yea Hp/Wt would say that, the reality of it is that truck isn't competitive w/ an open wheel formula car

Do you guys have any idea how hard it is to drive an over powered rocket, both these guys can drive and do a hell of a job handling them dare I say much better than the vast majority, but I don't feel they could ever be competitive in those respective classes, just look at history on them and plot their times, it just isn't there.

These comments presuppose that we are trying to create a perfect classing system where every car (and driver?) is competitive. This is not the case – instead, we are trying to strike a balance with a simple yet meaningful metric(s) by which to establish classes that have the potential to facilitate competition across a range of vehicles driven with a high level of competence. Perhaps more importantly, I feel this is simple multiple choice question – what is the best way to class cars for COMSCC time trials in 2014 and beyond: A) cylinder count only (Prepared classes), B) cylinder count (Prepared classes) AND cylinder count + generally cosmetic rules (Street Prepared Classes), or C) power/weight (Super classes). In my opinion, if you have a high-powered car that doesn’t handle very well, you aren’t going to do well in any sort of open style classing except by low attendance and coincidence.

Freddy --- in Super B, yep hp/wt again, funny, prob. the fastest "car" at present in the club and he is in Super B two classes lower than what is suppose to be the very fastest group

Fred is the fastest driver in the club, but Fred does not have the fastest car in the club. I actually think his classing comes out about right – today he’s in the 4th highest Prepared class (6th highest class overall if you add SPA/SPB, which both should be faster); based on your reasoning, would this not be an improvement?

Personally, I don't care and I have no longer have a car in this discussion .... but, think about do you really see this making sense for all or is just the select few that need to be kept happy, change for the sake of change really isn't a great idea ... I do understand your intentions are good and theory is there, it just doesn't work in reality ...... heck, even NASA a balancing factor to apply to cars ( it doesn't work in reality, but they try ) .

I would be happy to add back in “adjusters” or “modifiers” for various factors, including drivetrain layout and platforms, tires, aero, etc. to get a more “precise” classification. However, the feedback we received was to keep the “run what you brung” nature of the top classes in COM. Accordingly, the new version of the Super classes is just power/weight instead of cylinder count. Objectively, I see this as a huge improvement. Selfishly, I don’t care – SSA was OK in 2012, but I'm having way more fun in T60 this year, and don't even plan on running in a P/SP/Super class.

Finally, the Super Class proposal is not to keep a couple people happy. It is a viable alternative to the cylinder-count system that we have today. I would describe feedback on all 3 options as "mixed" at this point with a few leaning towards current state (P and SP), and the rest split between P and Super.

So much for me keeping my big mouth shut.

Again, just kidding - No one is asking you to shut up... This is a forum...the only thing that really baffles me is why you keep suggesting that you won't post public comments in the exact place where public comments should be posted, and the proceed to continue posting.

[blazer178]

I do not care where I get put in the classes but I do not like having to race against open wheel cars since there is no way of even getting close to them ...They should be in a class by themselves but I guess in the time trials you will just have to give me 45 seconds after them so I will not get run over and that they {may } not catch me . I understand that I have the best p/w with an closed wheel car . I am not going to depower it just so I fit some place or add weigh to get the p/w down....So I guess since I am the little guy that races with COM it does not matter much to where I am classed . I just want to race and it is nice to know that if Bruce or Charlie are not there I can get a trophy
I do think closed and open wheel should be in different classes and that was told by other members of the club

[Brendan]

Here's another data point. My E30 M3 (T90 or T100 Depending on how I'd run it), would be Super C.

[McMahonRacing]

***** I was under the impression the new rules were to create a fair & competitive rules set for all involved, as they stand in the mock results it doesn't show that it is competitive for all or that even theory would hold that Super A is faster than Super B, as I have said form the beginning we don't have the time, man power or technical support to create a perfect set of rules or for that matter one that is any better than what we have right now, I am trying to point to specific cars that I am very familiar w/ to express the point that a straight hp/wt doesn't work fairly for all involved & a hp/wt w/ factors can't possibly work as we don't have the ability to do it correctly either ( I feel the same goes for the T classes, remember I disagreed w/ you then too when the discussion began going south, there are plenty of holes in those rules but that is for others to deal with now ), I have also tried to point out that from experience ( NASA & COM ) that is does not work -- the intention is very good & I will give you credit for your work I just think this is going the wrong direction, hence my move over the past winter.

**** Really do you think Butch in SU works or that Bill in SA works ? Should we expect them to change their cars to meet a new rule set ? ... Yes, they will quietly run wherever but, does that really show that we created a good working rules set for all ? How many other guys that have poured $$$ into their toys to suit their desires & COM rules over the years should we now expect to change their direction and reinvest to be competitive in a class, in my mind it should be none. Would the new rules set play to a newbie who is still building most definatly, yes ... again that is up to the club at the end of the day.

**** Freddie's position today vs the proposal, think I have mentioned in the past that the rules today don't work quite right either, it is just that I am more in favor of them then the proposal, if I had it my way the top end of all the rules would be a total free for all --- Open Wheel Class & Closed Wheel Class ( only rules is the practical application of what is considered Open vs Closed ( ex. an FR500 is not "open wheel", an Atom w/ a reasonable tire is not "open wheel", a Legends car is not "open wheel" etc.) & "safety equipment" on par w/ a race car ... you dominate in a lower lets say prepared style class and you are forced to move up a ladder that will eventually take all the rockets out of the mix and let them play together hopefully making things more competitive for the other guys) ...... who then has the fastest car in the club, pretty sure Freddie sorted out at the top most all of last year ( fyi - open wheel race cars aside ) ?

***** Curious have you ever really tired by car & driver to go back say 1-2 yrs and build a good spread sheet of performance ( times ) for the guys in the Prepared group, then bounce them back against you new proposal to see just how many outliers you really have, I know where I stood and against who in the past and I know that based on the proposal I would be most likely be 1 of 2 or 3 dominate cars in a class and that cars slower than I would actually be in higher classes than myself, so I just don't see it making sense.

****** As for keeping my big mouth shut, well yes it is a public forum it is just that seeing the direction of the club in the last year or so, along w/ some long term plans I decided to leave COM for NASA, having been in NASA I don't see myself running COM again in the near future so I am a little hesitant in my desire to voice an opinion based on a car that won't run w/ COM or w/ the TT rules as they are proposed, there is much more to it than a straight rules thing, they just happened to be the final straw ... as for taking things off line, well when you see things heading in a direction where there is no possibility of agreement, discussion is beginning to head in the wrong direction and the comments back and forth are becoming more aggressive then it needs to move away from the public view ( hence agree to disagree and move it off line if one wishes ).

**** Again if I were to vote, I would things the way they are as I just think it is the lesser of two evils at present, but that's just my opinion.

[blindsidefive0]

Dealing with formula cars and outliers (i.e. cars that should be fast on paper but aren't that fast in real life) is challenging, but overall I would say we see some new match-ups that are an improvement over the status quo, especially in Super B and Super C. Compared to SPA (where only 1 event in 2013 has had more than 1 competitor), I would think almost anything would be an improvement - but it is just my opinion that I don't like running in a class by myself.

As for looking back into history - absolutely. I know that Chris Parsons and I have taken a guess at just about every single car that has come through this club in the last few years, as well as a bunch of other "common" track day cars/builds that we might see in the future - this, along with mathematically consistent spreads, comparison with other power/weight competitive clubs, etc. is where the Super U/A/B/C/D cutoffs came from. There are definitely some outliers that are tough to place (e.g. Butch or even the Formula Vee, which is just so slow no matter what class you create for it...).

Getting back to Formula cars - we created the formula car adjustment factor of -2.5 (approximately equivalent to a 50% power/weight increase for most SCCA Formula-class cars) based on known lap times of tin tops and formula cars to equalize them; for instance, with COMSCC no one has ever TT'd faster than 2:00-flat at Watkins Glen, including open wheel cars. However, several tin top cars have crossed that threshold with other clubs (e.g. 911 Cup Cars). Also, this adjustment allow cars like the Skippy or FV to not have to run against Formula E's and such, which as even worse match-up than Butch's truck.

Finally, which car would I say is the fastest? Honestly, I think this is probably a better debate for the COM Talk forum, and I wouldn't want to speculate and suggest cars that I 'think' could go faster than Fred... However, I know that the Fuchswanz vette and Doug's M3 have both ripped off faster times at the Glen than Fred. I would guess there's another few tin top cars that could be driven faster than Fred in his e30...if Fred were driving them.

I suppose we will need to agree to disagree (note that I spared this forum from another awesome movie quote meme). However, I do want to be clear - would you prefer to keep Street Prepared and Prepared or just Prepared? And if so, would you make any other changes to these classes?