Rules for 2013

[savage217]

I am in favor of a dynosheet for modified cars. It's 75 dollars for 3 pulls at most shops. If we do a dyno day we could potentially get that number down even more and then everyone would be all set for the most part. Honor system still always applies.

[962porsche]

i am no at all in faver of having to pay to have my car dynoed ! it's more than just the 75 dollars it's the time i lose from work and having to load up my car and unload the thing just to put it on a dyno . then there is the fuel cost to hall the car to the dyno shop and back .
i could care less what the hp and torque is of my car ! if the club wants to know then they can pay for it !
i will be dammed if i have to take my car to the dyno for every motor i have for it just to get my car classes !

[paultg]

This was discussed a bit at the meeting during lunch on Saturday. Dave, unfortunately I think you had already left due to a mechanical failure with your car.
If I heard things correctly; the competitors are expected to estimate the power and torque of their vehicles correctly. Fellow competitors as well as the scrutineers will most likely be fine with an honest number and there shouldn't be a problem.

If you get protested but have an honest number; i'd suspect the protest gets tossed? Who knows. If they request backup; then it's on you to prove it is legal (at your costs). If you choose not to provide enough info to justify your car class resulting in dq; that's on you.

it's no different than how the system works now.

[962porsche]

there are number the manufacture gives and any one can just google to get them .
or there are many other clubs to run with !
this is how it should work like other clubs do it .
if you get protested the one that protests you puts up the money to do the tech inspection ( dyno time and related costs ) if they are found to be right they get there money back if they find out they are wrong they lose the costs .
this does many things one it curtails any BS protests and should also curtail any BS from some one cheating . will it stop at hell no nothing will ever do that but it should stop any person from just saying they want to protest some one .

[brucesallen]

Bruce, there's a lever arm with a load cell on the dyno that measures newtons of force which is converted into ft lbs.

Hp is a function of that measurement and RPM.

Yes, but the torque curve you supply from your dyno is NOT the torque measured at the wheel! It is much less, by a factor of 3 or 4... an estimate of the engine shaft torque. I suggest your dyno measures actual wheel torque (a twisting rotational force) multiplies by wheel RPM to get wheel horsepower and that is on the horsepower plot. It will be about 85% of the shaft hp due to drive train losses. I further suggest that the displayed torque plot is HP/engine shaft RPM. This calculated value will be the engine shaft torque reduced by the drive train losses so, just like HP, the plotted torque will be less that manufacturer shaft torque by 15%. Right?

By the way, as we know, your dyno that can measure true steady state torque produced by an engine is much more accurate than an "accelerate the mass" dyno. The latter does not take into account the mass of the engine, flywheel, drive train and gears, wheels and tires which is very significant.

Regarding the rules, I think they state that Touring cars should use the manufacturer's shaft HP and torque but in Super classes chassis dyno Hp and torque figures are used. I think all classes should use shaft hp and torque so cars can see the effect of moving from Touring to Super or vice versa. As you say, if you know shaft you can calculate wheel and vice versa.

[paultg]

there are number the manufacture gives and any one can just google to get them .
or there are many other clubs to run with !
this is how it should work like other clubs do it .
if you get protested the one that protests you puts up the money to do the tech inspection ( dyno time and related costs ) if they are found to be right they get there money back if they find out they are wrong they lose the costs .
this does many things one it curtails any BS protests and should also curtail any BS from some one cheating . will it stop at hell no nothing will ever do that but it should stop any person from just saying they want to protest some one .

I'm not aware of the club currently having a punch of bs protests as is, and under the newer classing system information about competitor vehicles will be more available than they are now (you will have access to the classing sheet and spreadsheet of any car registered for the tt I believe). The thought during the lunch time discussion was that many of these highly modified cars are tuned on an engine or wheel dyno as it is, or new equipment is advertised with data (say if you purchase a GM long block from GM Performance).

The scrutineers and club members are also a huge resource in terms of knowledge about the vehicles. I'm sure if the club were to experience a bunch of protests (bs or not), the system we have in place would be put to the test and if something needed to be changed it would be. I don't think we need to make a bunch of "what if" knee jerk reactions at this point in the process, just focus on getting the base point for the system in terms of car classing.

Paul G.

[962porsche]

no there are not many protests with the rules as they are now . but there could be with the rules that may go thru ?
it's to ez for some one to just through out a bs protest . in my case i have no intent to have every one of my motor dynoed . at 125 dollars an hour for engine dyno time hell no !
as for asking another scrutineer ( like my self ) about a oddball drive line like the one in my car . please we are not talking about any GM crate motors here .
the bottom line is the club is making people go out and have there cars or motors dynoed . if thats the case then the club should do what they do in the 944 spec racing the sanctioning body brings a dyno to the track you take the wheels off the car and the dyno gets bolted on .
like that would ever happen with comscc !
people were talking about how the new rules are going to cut costs . all i'm seeing is it's going to cost me more money to keep running with comscc .

[TroyV]

Here is my situation for reference to cost.

My car straddles T50 and T60 depending on what tire I choose. T50 is attractive to me because it is less costly for me to run there. Nitto NT01's and Hoosier SM6's are within 20 bucks of each other in cost right now, but the Nitto lasts significantly longer, and is way less sensitive to heat cycles than anything Hoosier makes. The Hoosier, with its base number and oversize assessment is four points more than the Nitto in my size. So, the Hoosier is not only about 20 bucks more, but it bumps my class to T60. If I choose to run in T60, I have some points to work with. In this case, I can spend to optimize. That might mean more power from a engine rebuild, or baller shocks etc. Theoretically, you want your car to be as close to 50.9 in T50 or at 60.9 in T60 to have reached your build limit. On Nittos as my car sits, I'm at 50.7. I'm seriously leaning toward that route, though not being able to run a real rain tire is really what is the determining factor to me in this case.

I certainly don't have to spend. I can stay where I am, run a Nitto/RA1, and live life on the cheap.....but most of the guys I respect, and have run with in ST4 over the years are going into T60. It is a tough choice, because I want to run with them, but in the end my situation may actually be a money thing, and may/will make the difference between attending and not attending events in the future.

In summary.....Anyone on here that says they don't care about being competitive is lying. The new rules set gives me the option to come out on a shoe string budget and compete, or to spend and come out swinging in a higher class.....and I can legitimately compete in either.

[PaddyMcP]

in my case i have no intent to have every one of my motor dynoed . at 125 dollars an hour for engine dyno time hell no !
as for asking another scrutineer ( like my self ) about a oddball drive line like the one in my car . please we are not talking about any GM crate motors here .
the bottom line is the club is making people go out and have there cars or motors dynoed .
people were talking about how the new rules are going to cut costs . all i'm seeing is it's going to cost me more money to keep running with comscc .

Just so it's clear. Under the current revision of the 2013 ruleset absolutely no one is required to dyno their car and provide a dyno sheet to register. If the super class or engine swap guys want to make this a requirement i would expect it to have to be nearly unanimous decision because of the costs incurred by the members that would essentially be forced on them. We did this on purpose. We just can't make people spend money that they don't want to spend.

What we did find however is that you are in the minority. About 90% of super cars know exactly what power their car makes and on what dyno. Hell a huge amount of the touring class guys can tell you in a heartbeat what they make at DSG. However, it doesn't matter. You really can't make a group of cars required to dyno at their own expense imho.

People continue to forget that a g meter in a car with a known weight can find a car blatantly breaking the rules in the power department. A dyno is not required at racetracks to police power necessarily.

It sure is a hell of an advantage to know your race cars power when competing against race cars. They do call it motor racing for a reason

-Paddy

[iamrazor]

the bottom line is the club is making people go out and have there cars or motors dynoed .

I disagree with this statement. I think every driver knows an approximate hp value of their car (+/- 5%). Would you put down some ridiculously low hp number just so you'd dominate your class? I don't think that's really in the spirit of competition (or align itself with 99% of COM), do you? If you don't want to dyno your car (I'm not), use what you know. Judging by your car, I will go on the assumption you know what motor is in there and you know how much hp it makes. If you told anyone your hp / tq numbers, would they believe you? I'd believe you until you were kicking the crap out of everyone in your class. At that point I would expect a protest, wouldn't you?

people were talking about how the new rules are going to cut costs .

I think they mean "you don't have to spend a lot of $ to be competitive". which in my view is entirely accurate.

$.02 deposited.

[Jimmy Pet]

Hey Guys,
I know I only do two COM events a year,,, away events at that,,, but PLEASE do not kill the best classing system in the Northeast.
One of the main reasons I fell in love with COM was the run what ya brung nature of the COM Prepared classes.

Screw around with all the other classes all you want but PLEASE leave Prepared alone and let the modified cars continue in a straight fight.
Any time, ANY sanctioning body starts determining the "base class" of a car its a mess. What factors go into that?
Who gets to say what car is better by what amount than another. All 100% subjective. No way to quantify it.
Any driver of an E30 M3 has been fighting that since the car was built.

The beauty of the COM Prepared system is its a straight fight based on cylinders. May the best gun and gun fighter win.
I for one love it... No matter how many times Fred kicks my ass,,, its still better than being beaten by cars with 6 or more cylinders because someone said a certain car was an overdog and started in a high base class.

PLEASE leave Prepared alone.

[Shawn624]

Any time, ANY sanctioning body starts determining the "base class" of a car its a mess. What factors go into that?
Who gets to say what car is better by what amount than another. All 100% subjective. No way to quantify it.
Any driver of an E30 M3 has been fighting that since the car was built.

There are ways to quantify it.

I agree that the appearance or feeling of fairness comes from objective measurements. Two years ago we had a very subjective classing system.

Last year's reworking of the classes based on hp/weight added objectivity but was clearly incomplete. Hp/weight does not take into account some other obvious performance differences such as vehicle dimensions, drag, suspension, and tires, tires, tires, tires, and tires.

The new system seems to bring more objectivity to the classing system which makes it harder to make the argument that you are going slower than the rest of your class because the classing system is unfair.

The new system also makes it easier for people with small racing budgets to compete fairly with others who have a similar willingness or ability to invest in performace enhancements.

Reworking class systems each year does nothing to reduce the cost of setting up a car to be competitive in class. There is value in consistency of rules over time.

IMHO

[Chrispy]

Hey Guys,
I know I only do two COM events a year,,, away events at that,,, but PLEASE do not kill the best classing system in the Northeast. One of the main reasons I fell in love with COM was the run what ya brung nature of the COM Prepared classes.

Screw around with all the other classes all you want but PLEASE leave Prepared alone and let the modified cars continue in a straight fight.
...
PLEASE leave Prepared alone.

They more or less are being left alone. The Prepared classes map more or less directly to the new Super classes. No base points, no did I mod this, did I mod that. The only change is rather being based on cylinder count it is now based on power to weight. And yes Fred will probably still win most of the time

The Super classes are the "run what ya brung" classes and are anything goes. Request a copy of the current spreadsheet and you'll see what I mean.

[savage217]

^^^

Jimmy,

Street prepared and prepared C are generally okay as the rules stand today. I use ok loosely for the following reasons:

All cars competing in the C classes are NA 4 cylinders. You do not have to worry about the varying powers of forced induction and things of that nature. However, even in the C classes, their are major discrepancies. Take a spec Miata for example, that car falls under Prepared C. Yourself and Fred in your respective cars as they sit now would destroy that Miata. It would be another situation of a gun in a knife fight which is exactly what is occuring in a lot of the street prepared classes with the forced induction 4 cylinders making nearly double the power of a naturally aspirated 6 cylinder. I think the problem is the rules are outdated. Maybe 15 years ago a forced induction 4 cylinder would be equivalent to a NA 6 cylinder, but we all know today that is not the case at all. In order for myself for example to win SPB, I would need to spend quite a bit of money to do so.

Have you read the new rule propositions? I think you will be very impressed and in agreeance with most of it. The beauty of these new rules, as most have expressed, is that every car will be competitive, no matter what your budget may be. That f*cking rocks!

[Jimmy Pet]

I guess step one is that I do need to see a copy of the proposal.
I wasnt even aware there was a rules change proposal until I got a survey email.
I am hoping that it will not change the equation much for us in Prepared C.

Nick, I do agree the forced induction situation for the "B" cars is a situation that the "C" cars do not have to worry about.
I honestly do not know what to do with the amount of power these forced induction cars a capable of putting down and they get dumped up the food chain into "B" and "A".

Where does one find a copy of the new proposal?

I only know (selfishly) every single time I have ever tried to class my car into NASA its a bad bad situation,,, which is why I do not run with NASA for TTs or Club Racing. That whole calculation system works very badly for my car.

I race with SCCA,,, because I race in a N/A displacement based class,,, where I feel I have a fighting chance.
Hopefully COM doesnt become just as bad a situation as NASA is for my car.