Rules for 2013

[C5toSM]

For folks who think you will get killed at the bottom of the super classes - run this weekend and see how the results shake up. If there are glaring issues after this weekend, propose tweaks to the system to the authors; I know they are open to feedback if its constructive.

Nice work Nick, Pete, Paddy - looking forward to competing next season with the new system!

+1

John

[Resolution78]

Just added mine up with the sheets came up with 87.8 points but there is also 6 point I could get rid of with alittle prep work .... So for now t90 would that make me t80 then though if I managed to get the points down ......

81.8 start
1- high flow cats
2- headers longtube
Removable items
1- CAI
1-ECU flash
1-mufflers
1-driveshaft
2-spoiler ???? Factory optional but I added it personally
Subtraction a
-1 tires 10mm smaller
-2 vrs factory wheight with driver

This all being said I'm def not taking anything off my car next weekend what class should I be running in ????

Also there is nothing in the rules for my tiger racing hood .... It's supposed to help with front end downforce at speed ....???

[chaos4NH]

For folks who think you will get killed at the bottom of the super classes - run this weekend and see how the results shake up. If there are glaring issues after this weekend, propose tweaks to the system to the authors; I know they are open to feedback if its constructive.

Nice work Nick, Pete, Paddy - looking forward to competing next season with the new system!

+1

John

But you will just be told you are a slow driver

[Resolution78]

For folks who think you will get killed at the bottom of the super classes - run this weekend and see how the results shake up. If there are glaring issues after this weekend, propose tweaks to the system to the authors; I know they are open to feedback if its constructive.

Nice work Nick, Pete, Paddy - looking forward to competing next season with the new system!

+1

John

But you will just be told you are a slow driver

Sometimes it's true .......

[Mark Swinehart]

See Sam, even the "new" guy knows!!!

[DanDarcy]

Sam you will just have to install bigger pedals from your bicycle.

The problem with such a difference in points for tires is you can be in one class in the morning, change your tires and be in another class in the afternoon. In time trials I have run A6s, R6s, Hoosier Wets, and stock Yokohama 048s , all within the last two years. So how do you accumulate class points if I run in T80, T90, and maybe T100. I doubt if my car will be competitive in any of the before mentioned classes but I go to the Com events to have FUN After all most of us are just "Walter Mitty" want-a-bees out on the track to have a good time, don't take this stuff too seriously.

[Chrispy]

-1 tires 10mm smaller
-2 vrs factory wheight with driver

This all being said I'm def not taking anything off my car next weekend what class should I be running in ????

Also there is nothing in the rules for my tiger racing hood .... It's supposed to help with front end downforce at speed ....???

Sorry but you don't get -1 for being 10mm under, you would get -2 for being 20mm under though. There is a 10mm grace that works in both directions as it sits now.

Not sure about the hood, would have to see it. At worst it might get a 1 point assessment but chances are it is free unless it has widgets sticking out all over.

Remember for this event the new classing system is just for data gathering purposes so don't sweat it too much. Figure T90 for now, and then next year you can decide what you want to do as far as classing.

[Resolution78]

-1 tires 10mm smaller
-2 vrs factory wheight with driver

This all being said I'm def not taking anything off my car next weekend what class should I be running in ????

Also there is nothing in the rules for my tiger racing hood .... It's supposed to help with front end downforce at speed ....???

Sorry but you don't get -1 for being 10mm under, you would get -2 for being 20mm under though. There is a 10mm grace that works in both directions as it sits now.

Not sure about the hood, would have to see it. At worst it might get a 1 point assessment but chances are it is free unless it has widgets sticking out all over.

Remember for this event the new classing system is just for data gathering purposes so don't sweat it too much. Figure T90 for now, and then next year you can decide what you want to do as far as classing.

Got it t90 for now .....

[blindsidefive0]

Class yourself based on the equipment you will be running during the time trial. There is no competition "in the morning" so what does it matter what your practice setup is?

[WillM]

Well .... was going to STFU .. then I didn't ... then I tried to point out some errors as I see them ... made a couple suggestions ... etc etc etc ... well last night, I finally decided I have had enough ... the rules propsal point blank does not work 100%, our current system does not work 100% they both foster the expendautre of $$$ to win & if you don't, you loose, they rely heavily on trust & faith, we do that now and look what we have, so changing one set of rules for another is in reality a moot point .... if & when I do show for another COM event I will simply follow the rules as determined by the BOD to limit, if I choose to TT ....... honeslty, I really am done this time, I hope I helped & didn't detract too much, if so my appoligies ....... NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

Unacceptable Pat! Your virtual letter of resignation has been REJECTED!

This has been a lively discussion. I haven't read 1/2 of it (yet) but I do like what I've read so far. Lots of informative and well developed ideas.

The kit car thing is always a challenge. Part of the reason why SP and P have worked for so long is that it is very easy to determine which sub-class you are in (by cylinder count), and the rules are fairly open, especially P where 'anything but nitrous goes'.

There are a lot of things I like about the proposed classing system, but I'm not sold on the idea of requiring dyno plots and such, but I don't as yet have a fully-developed alternative that would work for the 'super' classes.

Keep the great posts coming!

- Will

[hroundy]

I like the concept as it allows me to make small modifications and remain within my general class. I always thought that a stock autocross car should not have to move to ST because of something as minor as a sway bar change. This system will allow it unless the car is at the top of a class.

I do find the class structure miss-leading for stock cars. In most cases the driver with helmet will weigh over 150 lbs, therefore any SS car with a rating in the lower portion of a class (<45, <55, <65, <75, <85, <95) automatically drops a class just by the driver getting into the car. In addition, any small SS car with in a relatively high class, can not get the tire width allowed for the class onto it and gets another few points off. Since this system is aimed at classing stock cars and then moving them based on points for modifications, shouldn't the stock cars be classed where they are likely to run.

My example is a Lotus Elise which is a T80 car with a rating of 74. I weigh 170 which allows me a -4, dropping the rating to 70 making it a T70 car. T80 allows 265 tires, the largest tire I could get on without rubbing or making serious body modifications, would be 245, another -2 dropping the Elise to 168. That gives me 2 points to use for sticker tires and remain in T70. If the Elise was in T70 to begin with, I wouldn't have some 2 points to use on some performance enhancing modification such as adjustable shocks, a sway bar change or sticker tires.

I think that the "curb" weight should include a 150 lbs driver and then adjust for weight differences from there. This would put SS cars where there are likely to run in. It would be clearer to the new person running a stock car.

[peterfontana]

One thing I learn from my day job is that all change is painful - regardless if the change is for the better. I guess we're already seeing that here.
Let me share some observations about the 2013 classification system that have helped me understand it better:
A Key Goal: more evenly spread competitors in fewer classes: We’re going from 17 classes in the legacy system to 10 classes in the 2013 system and the hope is that the classification criteria will make the class distribution more even and representative of actual car potential.
Another Key Goal: Have class progression more closely correspond the actual performance potential of each car modification. The legacy system allowed some potent modifications with no change in class, while other, nearly inconsequential modifications moved you into race car country.
Just like the legacy classification system, the 2013 system relies on the personal integrity of the competitor. From each individual’s initial decision of Touring/vs/Super on through the self-reporting of mods they’ve done, if they want to lie and cheat, they still can. The club will not have scales and a dyno at the track to check, nor do we expect the individual to have to be this rigorous.

The new system will need to be shaken out through actual use. While this is the product of some long effort and careful research by some very smart and experienced people (I was not involved), like any new highly technical product, I’m sure we will find defects in the new rules and in the Classification Tool spreadsheet. I’m also sure we’ll find that some adjustments to points assessments will be needed here or there. As we move the club into the (somewhat) new millennium, patience and understanding will go a long way in helping this transition.

Nick and I will have a garage and I’ll have my laptop with a screen or projector. Feel free to stop by and we can pull up the classification tool and work through questions or issues.

[wizzman]

That gives me 2 points to use for sticker tires and remain in T70.

Sticker STREET tires. Any race compound tire is at least 3 points.

[blindsidefive0]

Howard - thanks for weighing in.

When going through the tire sizes for each class, we tried to get the tire size as close as possible for the majority of cars within the particular class. It just happens that the Elise is an outlier in this case (In a class with 370z, newer M3, Mustangs, Porsche Boxster, etc.) - however, we wouldn't want to say that you need to run the stock tire size or else the Elise would be negatively affected right off the bat from a competitive perspective...so I guess I'm saying go ahead and enjoy those 2 points.

As far as weight - this is another area we talked about a lot. Other TT clubs, and several "spec" racing classes, assign you a min comp weight, which is often the listed factory curb weight of the car. This encourages guys to gut their interiors to get down to the min weight, so we decided to give some points back if you go over - this also incentivizes guys to throw in a roll bar or cage to help their weight situation (if you cage your car, you can effectively take out 150lb and take 0 points...and you now have a stiffer car). Now, you might ask why didn't we just add some sort of base adjustment to the weight (curb weight + 175lb or whatever)? The answer is to keep things simple - it's easier to just list the curb weight and give points back the same way we take them away rather than trying to justify some "automatic adjustment" that may not be appropriate for all car/drive/gear combos even straight from the factory. Does this mean that some cars may drop down a class? Yes. However, in the new structure, the "starting" class doesn't matter as much as it does today - it has no "meaning"; all that matters is where you end up after all of your mods. Example: If you have a 2001 Honda s2000 with 62 points, and you want to use all 4 weight points and run RS3's and sway bars against ST4 and friends...good luck to you, seems like a fun matchup to me.

[blindsidefive0]

Will, welcome to the party - some quick responses below...

The kit car thing is always a challenge. Part of the reason why SP and P have worked for so long is that it is very easy to determine which sub-class you are in (by cylinder count), and the rules are fairly open, especially P where 'anything but nitrous goes'.

We have been working with some folks offline regarding alternate solutions for under-powered "super class" cars, including kit cars. Fear not, depending on the NHMS-4 results, we may roll out one of the potential options.

but I'm not sold on the idea of requiring dyno plots and such

It is not our intent to require folks to submit dyno plots as part of classification. We specify in the Super Class rules that competitors must use "a. Wheel horsepower and torque of the vehicle, as attested to by the competitor" This means that no sheets must be submitted. The rules clarify, "a dyno sheet may be requested by the Chief Scrutineer at any time, but is not otherwise required upon registration" [emphasis added]

The only time a Chief Scrutineer should request a sheet is if a competitor is obviously BS'ing, and 1) get protested, 2) is so obviously lying that Tom Cannon can't help himself but call that competitor out.

We also mention the possibility of using a data logger in these instances to estimate power; this could also be available to folks who do not know their power - more discussion on this, and some testing, would be helpful. However, folks who have data loggers with this functionality and dyno plots for their motors said the estimation was surprisingly accurate.