Rules for 2013

[962porsche]

tork at the wheels is meaningless is just what i'm saying ! tork numbers at the wheels change greatly they are for the most part are taken in top gear but on cars were you can change out your gearing at the rear axle at any time in the matter of minutes it becomes a plus if your playing with numbers and how you want your car classed . on the other hand for motors on motorcycles and snowmobiles the tork and hp numbers are taken at the counter shaft not the crank .

You can change the rear-end all you want, it shouldn't alter your dyno results significantly on a modern load sensing dyno (Mustang, Dyno Dynamics etc). The dyno is only measuring HP, torque is just displayed as a factor of HP over RPM.

no changing the rear end gearing does not change the tork rating much . on my car (the diasio )using my friends mustang dyno with only a rearend gearing change we got a lowest tork of 78 to a high of 96 . with the HP about the same with all the gearing changes . so it may not seam great if your pushing high numbers but if your not talking about high number than it is a big deferents with changing your gearing . you have to remember we are not talking about a car that pumps out 400 FT LBS of tork . i'm talking about a car with low hp and tork numbers . so if i go by the worksheet and plug in my low numbers of hp and tork we got it puts me in super B if i plug in the high numbers i got it puts me into super A . or if i go by the hp and tork specs out of my repair manual i'm am i super B .
now i could just BS every one ! i have 3 motors for my car one stock one with a mild build and one that is a totaly built . because i can do a motor change in 35 minutes what specs would i give out ? the 2008 motor that dynoed at 229 hp with 103 tork the 2002 mild built motor dynoed with 163 hp and 92 torks or the 2001 stock motor with 150 hp and 80 torks that was never dynoed ?

[savage217]

^^^
I think you should sell your car.

[Chrispy]

no changing the rear end gearing does not change the tork rating much . on my car (the diasio )using my friends mustang dyno with only a rearend gearing change we got a lowest tork of 78 to a high of 96 . with the HP about the same with all the gearing changes . so it may not seam great if your pushing high numbers but if your not talking about high number than it is a big deferents with changing your gearing . you have to remember we are not talking about a car that pumps out 400 FT LBS of tork . i'm talking about a car with low hp and tork numbers . so if i go by the worksheet and plug in my low numbers of hp and tork we got it puts me in super B if i plug in the high numbers i got it puts me into super A . or if i go by the hp and tork specs out of my repair manual i'm am i super B .
now i could just BS every one ! i have 3 motors for my car one stock one with a mild build and one that is a totaly built . because i can do a motor change in 35 minutes what specs would i give out ? the 2008 motor that dynoed at 229 hp with 103 tork the 2002 mild built motor dynoed with 163 hp and 92 torks or the 2001 stock motor with 150 hp and 80 torks that was never dynoed ?

Dude, your killing me, LOL.

You have to use some common sense. If you go with ridiculously low numbers based on a configuration that you never actually use, then you run the risk of getting protested. If protested then they may make the use of telemetry to establish HP based on acceleration and weight, if there is no correlation between the real world and the numbers you submit then you will be DQ'd from the time trial. If you don't run time trials then it doesn't really matter, the classing is just a guide as to what other cars you want to play with on track. If you change your setup then you can change class every event if you want, but that's not very beneficial if you are trying to gather season points.

[Stynger]

Nick, I have some questions concerning engine swaps.

I'll use the Miata 1.6 - 1.8 swap as an example. We have a few in the club.

Can I use the 10-20% increase in displacement (4 points) then add any mods like headers, exhaust, non stock cat, ECU, cold air etc? (probably not)
Or, can I give Tom a Dyno number and get an assessment number and not have to claim headers, exhaust, non stock cat, ECU cold air etc because that is what made the dyno numbers?
Or, can I use the stock 1.8 numbers from the car list, give to Tom, get an assessment number and add header, exhaust, non stock cat, ECU, cold air etc?

Les,

According to the proposed rules, engine swap cars do not use the change in displacement formula, that is reserved for engines that have been bored & stroked. Engine swap cars are required to be re-classed based on new power/torque figures, the competitor is required to provide dyno sheets and supporting documentation. I'm not sure how dyno variance will be dealt with yet, but some conversion factor for dyno type may need to be considered.

You can estimate your new base points by using the formula's in the rule book.

Thanks Chris, I finally read the rules and saw the examples.

[962porsche]

as the car sits now i have the motor in it with a mild build . why the motor that is totaly built is going to be run next year when i do the new longer wheel base back half with the indepent rear . the stock motor is getting used for the mockup for the new back half .
ok thats the motor . now whan it comes to the rearend gearing what numbers would you like me to use for that ? the taller gearing i would use for the glen or the gearing i would use for the shorter tracks with tight corners and short straights ?
i can't submit a work sheet for every event or do we ?
i can't submit a middle of the road gearing for the tork because there are 22 sets to pick from that can be mixed and matched .
as for getting DQed . you can't see into my motor so the only way you will know what motor i'm using is if you know what color valve cover goes to what motor red , silver or black . when they are sitting on the bench that is the only way i can tell them apart . that is why i painted the valve covers . they don't tear down motors in comscc to check them .
then they want you to do your competition weight . how much weight can i add to my car ? well there is the coolsuit cooler filled with ice and water . i hardly ever use it for comscc events . then there is my fuel cell i only run 5 gals at a time but i could fill it to the 15 gals and at about 7 LBS per gal of fuel it adds alot of weight to a light car or a car that can be light . then there is my drink bottle do i use my pint one bottle or the two QT bottle ? now is doing that cheating to add to your compition weight ? because on a H.H.H. day i will use thoughs things .
will other people do the same things i'm doing to add to the weight of there compition weight ?
you bet your ass they are or will !

[dinoracer]

as the car sits now i have the motor in it with a mild build . why the motor.......n weight ? because on a H.H.H. day i will use thoughs things .
bet your ass they are or will !

Dude, it hurts my brain to try to follow you here. You may have some points in there, but please stop overthinking this, try to remember we're all going to the track for fun.

Can you hide stuff and cheat ? Yes. You can do that now. Can you make small changes that move you between classes? yes. Will other people try to bend the rules? Yes. They can also do that now.

[nateh]

David, I think you may be trying to sharpen the pencil too fine.

We expect all competitors to be honest. If one isn't, he or she may or may not get called on it. We hope that the publishing of these build sheets will improve transparency compared to the status quo, and the points system lowers the stakes for any given mod - both of which should make it more likely that people will play it straight.

That said: If someone chooses to cheat competently, they will get away with it. We aren't Formula 1, with millions to spend on scrutineering. Chances are, the person most hurt by the cheating is the cheater himself.

If you are struggling with how to build your car to maximize your chances of success, you are not alone. This is a good thing. For many of our competitors in the past, the concept of trying to build their car to a competitive state was daunting - or worse, unimagineable.

There will be more competition in the new class structure. Will there be losers? You bet. Except in solitaire, the only way to be a winner is to beat somebody. But I think there will be a much more reasonable process to follow for those who care to try.

[naschmitz]

^^^
I think you should sell your car.

+1. David, in the last three years you've run a total of two time trials. Why does your car class even matter?

[n1gzd]

Just because someone does not compete often enough to win their class for the year does not mean that they can't come and try to win an event or two. Don't forget, awards are presented at each event.
Rebecca

[McMahonRacing]

Well .... was going to STFU .. then I didn't ... then I tried to point out some errors as I see them ... made a couple suggestions ... etc etc etc ... well last night, I finally decided I have had enough ... the rules propsal point blank does not work 100%, our current system does not work 100% they both foster the expendautre of $$$ to win & if you don't, you loose, they rely heavily on trust & faith, we do that now and look what we have, so changing one set of rules for another is in reality a moot point .... if & when I do show for another COM event I will simply follow the rules as determined by the BOD to limit, if I choose to TT ....... honeslty, I really am done this time, I hope I helped & didn't detract too much, if so my appoligies ....... NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

[Georgethefierce]

Well .... was going to STFU .. then I didn't ... then I tried to point out some errors as I see them ... made a couple suggestions ... etc etc etc ... well last night, I finally decided I have had enough ... the rules propsal point blank does not work 100%, our current system does not work 100% they both foster the expendautre of $$$ to win & if you don't, you loose, they rely heavily on trust & faith, we do that now and look what we have, so changing one set of rules for another is in reality a moot point .... if & when I do show for another COM event I will simply follow the rules as determined by the BOD to limit, if I choose to TT ....... honeslty, I really am done this time, I hope I helped & didn't detract too much, if so my appoligies ....... NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

......doesn't NASA use a similar classing system? I hope you don't feel pushed, I felt the communication in this thread was all positive and has been pretty well received by the people leading the charge to update our classing system. No one is being shunned and everyone's opinions were being taken into consideration.

[962porsche]

i don't do time trails because the other car in my class are 7 to 10 seconds faster .
it's not the drivers it's the classing of the car ! if other drivers could be even 5 or 6 seconds faster driving my car i would say it's classed right in FP . because it's a D-sports car ( a old d-sports car ) i have to run it in FP were it should have been classed in PC . D-sports cars of today weight in at 700 to 750 LBS my car is a tank at 926 LBS dry weight . compition weight of my car fully dressed out with oil , coolant , full tank of fuel , coolsuit , drink bottle , and me with helmet and drivers suit on is 1284 LBS .
i would not say it's cheating or sharpening my pencil to fine dressing out my car to the max when i do run it that way it times .
i have said a 1000 times i never liked the way cars are classed in comscc . when i was runing my 944 8V car it was bone stock but because i removed alot of the interior to add the full 8 point roll cage the car gets classed in SPC . again by doing what i did to the car it added weight to the car and yet the bone stock car gets moved up to SPC .
so then i start to spend money on the car to run in SPC . well the same thing when i got my diasio it gets put into FP it is just way out classed for FP and even now in D-sports . so again to be competitive i have to spend a crap load of money . so now with the new rules i'm going to use a sharp pencil and i would not call it cheating at all .

[Chrispy]

Well .... was going to STFU .. then I didn't ... then I tried to point out some errors as I see them ... made a couple suggestions ... etc etc etc ... well last night, I finally decided I have had enough ... the rules propsal point blank does not work 100%, our current system does not work 100% they both foster the expendautre of $$$ to win & if you don't, you loose, they rely heavily on trust & faith, we do that now and look what we have, so changing one set of rules for another is in reality a moot point .... if & when I do show for another COM event I will simply follow the rules as determined by the BOD to limit, if I choose to TT ....... honeslty, I really am done this time, I hope I helped & didn't detract too much, if so my appoligies ....... NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

What your missing is that the gap between classes under the proposal is significantly reduced and it gives people infinite flexibility, both of which reduce the number of dollars required to be competitive in the touring class tremendously. This is a great boon to the little guy, and the budget racer.

The super classes are the anything goes classes essentially like P and SP were and as such if you want to be competitive in those classes then yes it takes more money to be on top. It doesn't have to be a lot of money, but money spent wisely.

[dradernh]

NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

......doesn't NASA use a similar classing system?

NASA's classing system is very similar, and they're fairly successful in the Northeast with their TT program. The event-by-event measure of that success is whether or not the TT group is numerous enough to warrant their own sessions or, as was the case last week at the Glen, they're lumped in with instructors (or, sometimes, advanced DEers) - the debriefings after those sessions are always interesting. BTW, NASA's TTs are run with everyone on the track at once in time order (i.e., fastest car goes out first, slowest last, based upon earlier sessions' results). I think COM's system is superior if the opportunity to set the fastest lap time you possibly can is what you're after. This year's NASA NE TT results can be seen here: http://www.nasa-tt.com/Northeast_Regional_Results. NASA NE runs the most at NJMP.

COM's strength is something that NASA NE can't compete with, and that's that it is a real club. NASA's chapters are for-profit franchises, resulting in an amazingly crammed schedule during the events where they're running racers, TTers, DEers, and instructors all on the same day. And they do a very good job managing all of that. There's a tire truck when the racers are running, drivers compare notes on their sponsorships, and there's generally more of a dialled-up feeling with the three-ring circus going on around you.

There's nothing wrong with NASA & I try to make events when they're convenient, but I think they lack COM's fun factor, which is a result of the people who make the club work. I mean, where else are ya gonna run into Bob Brooks!?! Different strokes is all. Better drivers? In general, I wouldn't say that's the case.

[PaddyMcP]

honeslty, I really am done this time, I hope I helped & didn't detract too much, if so my appoligies ....... NASA here we come & Thanks very much for the push, I have been meaning to make the move .....

The irony in this statement is earth shattering....