Rules for 2013

[eastcoastbumps]

Sam, put Car A and Car B through our current classing. Car A is SSA and with Hoosier A6's it would be competitive. BUT he'd only have 3 other people in his class if he were to run at our last event at WGI. If he shows up on any other tire (street tires for example) he would be uncompetitive against other cars in SSA running V710s or A6's.

Car B would be in SPA, and even with A6's would be uncompetitive at WGI against a Ford GT40, Daytona Coupe, etc.

My point being that not all cars are going to be top dogs. There will be more competition and the competition will be closer. It will be harder to win your class. As Nate said, everyone is classed too high!

[chaos4NH]

Not true Pete. The 944T would run in ST1, as it has all season. Under the new rules, the SSA car would have to compete against ST1 as Nick pointed out.
To quote Pat, Now I will STFU.

[Stynger]

I will let Nick drive my car, bet he won't come close to matching his times in his BMW. Thanks for accusing me of driving like a grandma.
Actually, would you like to drive my car?

If you read my entire post you would see (except for the subjective -5 points) I was NOT referring to me or my car.

Sam, I think Bill's comments were directed at the general discussion, not you personally.

IMO we could add $10.00 to registration and give everyone a friggin trophy. How meaningful would that be?

[paultg]

Classing is not fair now.
This is a means of making it more fair & more competitive.
It's not a be all end all fix it for every example for every competitor or car.

You cant and won't make everyone happy, but have to decide what benefits the majority of the members/club.

Paul G.

[blindsidefive0]

Sam, I want to make sure I'm clear about addressing each of your points below

So, present ST3 cars would compete against ST2 and ST1 cars? Sounds real fair to me (for the modified STI's that currently run in ST1).

What this shows is the overlap of the current system, not the unfairness or overly broad classes of the new system. The ST1 car I'm talking about could just be an AP1 Honda s2000 with a front sway bar and street tires, where the ST2 car could be something like a Impreza WRX (non-STi) with coilovers and Hoosiers, and the ST3 car would be what Greg Loupis did to his 328i a few years ago. If anything, the ST3 car would be fastest, then the ST2 car, then the ST1 car...at least in the proposed model these cars could run in the same class instead of having the fastest car of the 3 in the slowest of the classes.

Squashing the classes from 17 to 10 is a mistake. You cannot get around now over classing some cars (foregoing example) and under classing others.

Right now we use 5 Showroom Stock classes to capture everything from a stock MG Midget up to a new GT-R. In the future 7 touring classes span that range. Necessarily, the new classing system is "tighter". The reduction in classes is made possible not by free-for-all classes, but because there is a lot of overlap in the current system because of the wide range of modifications available within a given class, and the fact that stock cars cannot compete against modified cars even with similar performance potential.

While I support a well thought out points system, we are back to my argument of the past 2 yrs that Lb/hp is not an entirely fair assessment.
I was told that drive train, aero dynamics, etc. was factored in to the base assessments. That is not true if the same formula (-4.25 plus 115) is used for all base assessments. Now we get into the very subjective matter of adding and subtracting points based on car style: Example: 1994 Nissan SER (sorry Mark) gets -5 points, the car is a sporterized front wheel drive model based on a standard XE model, -5 points for what? 2007 Speed 3 is sporterized basic Mazda 3, a front wheel drive, 5 door grocery getter, no -5 points here? And, I don't want these decisions based on what a particular car did at Nurburgring (with who knows how much "tuning" in the hands of a pro driver).

Classing is not pure power/weight. In Super Classes there are adjustments for body style, drivetrain layout, and tires. In Touring classes we have the performance adjustment, as you mention. It sounds like you have a particular issue with the MS3's assessment, but I assure you it is not based purely on power/weight, and neither Pete, Paddy, nor I made up the values. We extracted a similar metric from the CASC system and only made tweaks based on other data - you should know the MS3 actually gets a POSITIVE performance adjustment under the CASC system, but we knocked it down to 0 because of similar vehicles that the MS3 is classed with under the NASA system. Perhaps after NHMS-4 you could suggest that the SE-R gets an assessment of 0 and the MS3 gets an assessment of -5 and then we can vote on it?

Here is another example of why there will be cars unfairly classed:
Car A has base assesment of 69.5 points so no mods (even R888's or RA1's - much less a cold air intake). Class is T70 Honda S2000 2.2L
Car B has base assesment of 61 points, wow, with CAI, SHOCKS, headers and 225 size R888's, AND tune it might make 70.5 and also is Class T70. 1990 Porsche 944 Turbo
Who says this does not become a $$$$ game?

I really don't think this is that unfair, and both probably cost similar in total (s2k starting price would be ~15k for an AP2, 944 Turbo could be 4-5k). In the s2000 I would probably put in a roll bar (added weight, get some points back) and run non-adjustable shocks and 255mm wide RS3's. Either way, we'll see how things shake out after the trial run and mock standings.

Bracket racing works for drag racing. Yes? Break out and you lose (you have the option of listing a faster time to prevent this in my proposal). And, I will proposed a system for presentation to the BOD for consideration. Of course it will not pass, but I will proposed it anyway at the next BOD meeting.

Pat, Nick, Chris, would you have a problem racing against cars/drivers that are in your lap time range?

I would leave the club if we switched to bracket-style. This literally eliminates driver competition. Yes, you have drivers that might be close together, all running <10/10ths to try to stay consistent and not improve (horrible incentives). However, this would not a test of who is the better driver, which is literally the entire point of the competition. While I'm putting myself at risk of someone "educating" me about the driver component of drag racing, bracket-style competition works in drag racing because it is so much about the vehicle versus the driver relative to road racing. Finally, our current classes are the same way, they try to group similar cars together to see who is the better driver...we also happen to incentivize fat wallets; the new system carries the same principle of driver competition forward, but we feel and hope that the $ factor is at least reduced...along with increased competition because removing huge overlap between classes.

I will let Nick drive my car, bet he won't come close to matching his times in his BMW.

[Resolution78]

so im the new guy here...... but as my job permits i most likely be around for most of next year until my submarine i work on starts going to sea again......

im still not sure which class my boss 302 will run in, a-stock would be the norm but, i have a CAI, long tube headers, new mufflers.... with the current tune about 430RWHP..... a tiger racing hood

I put you in T90 with 6 points to spare.

Actually forgot to ask about tires and cats. If your tire treadwear rating is < 120 but > 41 then add 2 points. If your long tube headers were cat delete then add 2 points. I'm assuming that 430whp was on a dynojet because that seems really high. If you ran DOT slicks you would probably end up in T100.

Tread wear 340 ... Cats still on the car Dyno was Dez racing in seeking mass ....maybe alittle under rated car ran 1/4 mile best of 11.8 at 116mph ... With my drag tires ....

[McMahonRacing]

Classing is not fair now ....
Another set of "classes" is just going to shift things for a "bit" not be a solution overall, so will be happy others won't and we will once again be calling for change, if change was that easy it would have been done long ago .....

The idea of running a "phanton" class for a yr, couls also go a long way toward proving a system ......

Getting accurate classifications done by drivers and showing not just NHMS 4 results but "Histroy" will go a long way in proving the system ....
My personal feeling is I would like to run against "time", based on the old system or any system not using "time" as a reality factor, this way I get to play w/ what I consider my "rabbits" ......

Honestly ... I went to PA origionally for a few reasons:
1- it was a faster class, it had "my rabbits in it"
2 - basically no rules, to me it was almost running "what ya brung" aginst ??? & he who comes out on top is it for the day
3- I wasn't going to be competative right off, I also wasn't 10 sec's off the pace, I knew iwhere I was & I knew I had a chance, I also knew my car wasn't where I planned it to be either so spending to get it there was fine w/ me ( you don't what to know how much either, this is the $$ figure I don't want to force on a fellow competator)....

Have myself seen "new tires" be worth ( depnding on car & driver ) worth between 2-6 sec/lap ... even though a driver selects his "tire" where is the allowance that considers "age", most of us, including myself can't afford new tires year in & year out ( ex. 2012 was the first year I have actually bought a new/unused set of current date tires since 2005 ... was running used,take off's ... the difference is significant )

Myself, each event I have "sorted" the results to see where I landed w/ "all cars" and used that as my basis for how I did ( it also highlights some of the variances in percieved performance hp/weight/torque theory and reality), but most importantly it also helped me in choosing my rabbits ....

As for Trophies .. I have a big box of unopened ones in the basement ..... very willing to donate these to the casue, I could use the space .....

If we wanted to test " true driver to driver ", then you need to go "Spec Racing" as that is the entire purpose behind it and one of the main reasons it is Spec ( other thans cost reduction ) ..... assuming we class cars by percieved perf. and assume that makes dirver to driver competition close is way wrong in my book ....... perfect example being Dad (SA) & I (SB w/ my little motor - then SA w/ my bigger motor ) and that is just friendly farther son stuff, ask him sometime @ 72 he has no intention of trying the stupid stuff I do but still does want to feel competative ...... bottom line classing cars w/ the system we have or another" will not create a truely fair driver to driver competition, for that is is a Spec class .......

[paultg]

So what is your point?
Vote against the new proposed system because it doesn't solve things enough??

This new system seems to have a lot of potential to improve the current system, and I also think a lot more flexibility to address the things you are worried about (compared to the new system).

If a car seems to be classed incorrectly there are many variables to review that car help with that specific vehicle.

I struggle to understand how a member who has only seen this tread info (or maybe a bit more) can just shoot this down right away without seeing the trial results or a season result modified based on this system.

Paul G.

[Chrispy]

Tread wear 340 ... Cats still on the car Dyno was Dez racing in seeking mass ....maybe alittle under rated car ran 1/4 mile best of 11.8 at 116mph ... With my drag tires ....

You get one point back for having crappy tires (TW > 200)

It is indeed a dynojet, so that would be about 370whp or so on a dyno dynamics or mustang dyno, maybe a touch less.

[breakaway500]

Nick,seeing as YOU brought it up again,I will un-STFU.

I must say,you are 100% incorrect about a potential lap time class system being "uncompetitive". Matter of fact,the new "most consistent award" is based on lap times to determine a winner. Anyone can win..any car,any equipment,and it is 100% based on your on track performance. Innovative,and I applaud it.

All a "new" equipment based classification system will do is shuffle around some cars,and everyone will once again have to build to the class limits (and then some.. ) to stand a chance of winning. You will have to run the best tires allowed as well,or be off the pace,just like the current system.
Yes,there will be all sorts of new rules,formulas for "correction points" etc etc..however,many of them will be unenforceable...like adding points for higher engine compression.How will that be checked? Oh yea,the "honor" system. I have seen how well that works.
It is just a new way of playing musical chairs with the classses.
I did read your proposal.. it does NOT solve the need to build to class limits to be competitive in that class.If that is the goal,and part of the "competition,so be it. It still will NOT guarantee class competitors will be on a level playing field equipment wise.Those who can afford to build to class limits will still have an advantage over those who don't. I'm not saying this is all wrong,as I am all for innovation and advancement of equipment,hovever,it does give someone a performance advantage over someone who does not build to the limit. (driving skills being equal)
If your overall goal is to promote on track close competition,you will never get it by classing by equipment alone.
All you will get is a competition to see who can build the fastest car in class,again. I don't see how it is any better than what we have.

I'm not saying a drag racing "bracket" style competition setup would work for road racing..but a competitive class system based on actual lap times could be developed. Unfortunatey, I am of the mindset that all classings are feel good,so I am not the person to develop one.

The fastest car "wins" and everyone else is slower by X amount of time. That's true racing in my book. Classes be damned.

Best of luck with your new proposed class system. I won't post again,as long as you STFU about using lap times to class. Deal?

[chaos4NH]

Thanks Mark! And, if you even think about using lap times, don't use how a particular car does at Nurburgring!!!

I will ride with you Nick! Looking forward!

[nateh]

May I request that any future discussion of lap time based classing or bracket racing be moved to a different thread? It is off topic.

Thanks!

[C5toSM]

May I request that any future discussion of lap time based classing or bracket racing be moved to a different thread? It is off topic.

Thanks!

+1 . . . Let's move on. It is off topic and FWIW- If we ever consider becoming a "bracket racing" club you can do it without me! I'll go find another sandbox to play in.

John

[naschmitz]

What happens to all the track records with the new classing system?

[nateh]

What happens to all the track records with the new classing system?

They are archived, as happens when tracks change. You can think of this as "permanently enshrined" if you want.