Rules for 2013

[Chrispy]

so im the new guy here...... but as my job permits i most likely be around for most of next year until my submarine i work on starts going to sea again......

im still not sure which class my boss 302 will run in, a-stock would be the norm but, i have a CAI, long tube headers, new mufflers.... with the current tune about 430RWHP..... a tiger racing hood

I put you in T90 with 6 points to spare.

Actually forgot to ask about tires and cats. If your tire treadwear rating is < 120 but > 41 then add 2 points. If your long tube headers were cat delete then add 2 points. I'm assuming that 430whp was on a dynojet because that seems really high. If you ran DOT slicks you would probably end up in T100.

[nateh]

As far as I can tell, it is unanimous. Every car I have heard of so far is classed too high.

[Chrispy]

My poor little 190 hp 2200# Lotus Elise also falls into T90 -- I think I will need another car or add a supercharger.

As far as a time or bracket class, I'm only suggesting those for novices or non competitive drivers. Kind of like bracket racing at the drags. At the last event in the highly competitive ST4 class there was a 21 second difference between fastest and slowest. New rules will not cure this time difference but a few time classes would allow some competition for our slower drivers.

Dan, your power to weight isn't that far off the Mustang (at least when it was stock) and you have the advantage of being a lot more agile so chances are you'd give him a run for his money, at least on reasonably twisty tracks like NHMS. Your car is actually pretty close to mine in terms of performance but I will most likely be in T100 depending on tire. The points for adding a supercharger would likely bump you to T100 or possibly SB depending on where you sit now.

Time based for a Novice class isn't a bad suggestion. Only issue is that novices improve by like 2 seconds per session so it can be a little difficult to say what the differential is based on.

[Chrispy]

As far as I can tell, it is unanimous. Every car I have heard of so far is classed too high.

Indeed

[962porsche]

My poor little 190 hp 2200# Lotus Elise also falls into T90 -- I think I will need another car or add a supercharger.

As far as a time or bracket class, I'm only suggesting those for novices or non competitive drivers. Kind of like bracket racing at the drags. At the last event in the highly competitive ST4 class there was a 21 second difference between fastest and slowest. New rules will not cure this time difference but a few time classes would allow some competition for our slower drivers.

i have been keep my opinion to my self all day now but .
is for doing it in a bracket form it's not just for new or slow drivers . when you can have a good driver drive my car and still be turning the same lip times as i in my car or just a little slower than my lap times and yet my car is still 8 seconds slower than many other open wheeled cars in my class . i would say my car is in the totaly wrong class .
from what i can see as the new rules would be i would still be running against the same cars . making the rule change pointless in my eyes . on the other hand some thing still needs to be done and i'm think it's great some people are doing just that ! thanks !!!!!

on bbc america's top gear they had a lotus head to head on the track with a mustang the lotus kicked ass on the mustang.

[Chrispy]

The open wheel rules are open to suggestion and debate so there is a chance that you may not be in the top class in the end.

[McMahonRacing]

Curious ,,,,, Does running a singular test @ NHMS #4 that favors handling vs HP really enough to be proof of concept ? .... I personally can be pretty quick @ NHMS, go to WGI and I drop like a rock to my "rabbits" as I just plain lack the HP to run the long straights ro pull the longer hills ....

Maybe someone can run a history once all the cars have been properly classed, there iappears to be plenty of history on the COM site and plenty of knowledgeable drivers ( they know full well w/ whom they are or are not competative ) ......

Please rememeber the little guy, they deserve to have a chance too, regardless of what they drive ...

[Grippy]

Here is what I would like to see. Have all competitors who attended at least 4 events this year fill out the worksheet and then apply times from this season to see how the entire season would have played out. Once you have the classifications it shouldn't bee too much work to apply the results. That would be much more comprehensive than just 1 event.

[Chrispy]

Exactly, and this is what the guys have been doing for the data that they have. The more data they can collect the better idea they can have if the system is balanced and fair. At the very least they should have everyone's predicted class by the next event so they can run the classes against events over the last 2-3 years.

[brucesallen]

Here is what I would like to see. Have all competitors who attended at least 4 events this year fill out the worksheet and then apply times from this season to see how the entire season would have played out. Once you have the classifications it shouldn't bee too much work to apply the results. That would be much more comprehensive than just 1 event.

Exactly! And send your spreadsheets to Nick so he can test it against all time trials for this past year. No need to wait for next week to see how fair the new rules are.

[McMahonRacing]

Suggested the same a couple times now, but the only one that can truely class the car is the driver/owner as Gordon suggests ... they are the only ones that know what they do & do not have .......

I actually started a small sheet for the 4 cars I know, for giggles as I mentioned earlier, wish I had more cars/drivers to show the effect of points w/in the SA & SB classes .... feel free to shoot me what you have if you are in those ...... patmcmahonracing@yahoo.com

Bruce ---- Myself & Dad are easy ....... # 67A = SB & # 11A = SA ... even posted this earlier, have not seen anyother numbers for these class's though ....

[blindsidefive0]

Quick update -

Based on some of your feedback we are making minor tweaks to the spreadsheet and rules. We are wrapping up a 1-page classification sheet as well. I will send out the latest version of all 3 (spreadsheet, rules, and class sheet) to all the NHMS-4 participants by the end of the 3-day weekend - since this will be the version used for the test at NHMS-4 we want to work out as many bugs as possible.

The biggest 2 changes were to super classes
- Torque is now a factor - weight/power is based on 2/3 x HP + 1/3 x Torque
- Open cars no longer forced to Super Unlimited - body style adjustment of -2.5 for single seater open wheel cars, -1 adjustment for all other open wheel cars; the open wheel adjustment is was made by modeling multiple formula cars and using SCCA lap record times at multiple tracks as a reference

Mock results - Yes, this is something we will work on and produce after NHMS. Once we have everyone's class we can see how past events would have shaken out at multiple tracks, not just NHMS. We can share those on this forum after the NHMS event - please keep in mind this will take time and a lot of work to pull together...volunteers welcome. I have started something already based on where I think cars will land class-wise, but I don't want to share something that might not be accurate...

What cars will fall in which classes? Rough estimates below
T40 - all of SSC, some ST4 and SSB cars (Dave Lemoine's e30 325ix would land here, as would COMSCC's newest member Rob Morse with his e46 325i)
T50 - several cars in ST4, some overweight SM's with RA-1s, most of SSB (my dead 325i with v710s would have run here)
T60 - the top half of ST4, SSB, SSA, some ST3 (NB Miatas)
T70 - SSA, SSGT, ST1, ST2, ST3 (my e36 M3, my dad's 964)
T80 - lots of lightly modified STi/Evo's would likely fall here with street tires, SSGT, ST1, ST2
T90 - SSGT, ST1, a few SPC and SPB cars, some cars/drivers that I expect to be in this class would run 1:18 range at NHMS
T100 - SSU, STGT, Chris Parson's 370z with slightly smaller tires, some overly built Miatas, stock c5z with R6's
Super B - Skip Barber Formula is at the top of this class with overly built Subarus
Super A - Monster FF Cobras, several Daytona Coupes, Diasio non-turbo is at top of class (specs according to Diasio's website, now that torque is a factor)
Super U - Open wheel cars from Formula Ford on up, monster race cars

As I look at the classing estimates, what I notice is a much more linear and consistent classing of cars with minimal overlap, especially in the Touring Classes. In the Super classes, many SPC, PC, SPB, and PB cars and even some PA/SPA cars end up in Touring classes, where some monster SPB, SPA, PB, and PA cars end up in Super classes. The biggest difference is that instead of measuring # of cylinders (which doesn't really make sense anymore) we measure power/weight.

Now for the little guys - I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that most "little guys" (yes, there are exceptions) aren't rolling in with race cars or monster street cars bumping them into the Super classes. I think the most obvious characteristic of a "little guy" would be street tires - which are now accounted for in the new Touring classes. Contrary to what others have implied, we see ST4 split up across 3 different classes (T40, T50, and T60) so the guy with a stock miata, 15x6" rims, a front sway bar, and street tires is no longer competing against cars capable of turning 2:20 at WGI.

[chaos4NH]

So, present ST3 cars would compete against ST2 and ST1 cars? Sounds real fair to me (for the modified STI's that currently run in ST1).
Squashing the classes from 17 to 10 is a mistake. You cannot get around now over classing some cars (foregoing example) and under classing others. While I support a well thought out points system, we are back to my argument of the past 2 yrs that Lb/hp is not an entirely fair assessment.
I was told that drive train, aero dynamics, etc. was factored in to the base assessments. That is not true if the same formula (-4.25 plus 115) is used for all base assessments. Now we get into the very subjective matter of adding and subtracting points based on car style: Example: 1994 Nissan SER (sorry Mark) gets -5 points, the car is a sporterized front wheel drive model based on a standard XE model, -5 points for what? 2007 Speed 3 is sporterized basic Mazda 3, a front wheel drive, 5 door grocery getter, no -5 points here? And, I don't want these decisions based on what a particular car did at Nurburgring (with who knows how much "tuning" in the hands of a pro driver).

Here is another example of why there will be cars unfairly classed:
Car A has base assesment of 69.5 points so no mods (even R888's or RA1's - much less a cold air intake). Class is T70 Honda S2000 2.2L
Car B has base assesment of 61 points, wow, with CAI, SHOCKS, headers and 225 size R888's, AND tune it might make 70.5 and also is Class T70. 1990 Porsche 944 Turbo
Who says this does not become a $$$$ game?

Bracket racing works for drag racing. Yes? Break out and you lose (you have the option of listing a faster time to prevent this in my proposal). And, I will proposed a system for presentation to the BOD for consideration. Of course it will not pass, but I will proposed it anyway at the next BOD meeting.

Pat, Nick, Chris, would you have a problem racing against cars/drivers that are in your lap time range?

[bhoss]

In my opinion Bracket Racing will not work - you rate the car not the driver. If you are a slow driver in a fast car you should not expect to be at the top of your class or trophy - our current rules with too many classes and too few cars have given too many drivers trophies that they really do not deserve and an attitude that you cannot take this away.

This is a competition - it is not fair to everyone - you prep you car to the rules and then drive the hell out of it. You should not be rewarded for driving your car at 8/10ths.

Practice times have little or no correlation to the TT times - many drivers are 2 to 3 seconds faster during the TT than any of their practice laps ( better tires, no traffic, more adrenaline - it counts) - just about everyone is faster in the TT.

The new points systems rewards those who make intelligent upgrades to their cars (not necessary under the old rules) and then drive their cars to the maximum. Lower prepped cars with sub-standard driving should not be rewarded.

If you do not think your car is competitive in your class/ not fast enough - put Fred F in it for a session to find out what your car can do.

-1 for setting classes by lap times

[chaos4NH]

I will let Nick drive my car, bet he won't come close to matching his times in his BMW. Thanks for accusing me of driving like a grandma.
Actually, would you like to drive my car?

If you read my entire post you would see (except for the subjective -5 points) I was NOT referring to me or my car.