power to weight is good . but you have to also look at aerodynamics of a car . i have been working hard on getting the aero on my car better than it was stock from diasio . but it is in no way like a open wheel car with wings and a thin body . then you can get into tire sizeing this will do two things to a car it will make it slower on a straight line and help with grip on the turns .
if you want to talk about having members spending money needlessly ! hell i'm building a new back half to my car just to be more competitive in FP . let me see ? i can spend 1000's of dollars for that or drop my car back into PC . well the rules state i'm a D sports car and they all get classed into FP .
Rules for 2013
Moderators: Boondocker850, blindsidefive0
-
962porsche
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1338
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:53 pm
- Location: hamden ct.
-
blindsidefive0
- Moderator
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:00 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
Re: Rules for 2013
Everyone, thanks for your comments on the new rules proposal. It’s great to see all the support, ranging from past and future Chief Scrutineer to some of the younger guys in the club like Chris, Paul, Derek, and Dave. You literally cannot refresh this thread without seeing a new post!
Ted – sounds like you have an older version of the spreadsheet. This is a tool for classing which we do not have for the current rules, but could help serve newer members to properly class themselves. We are still tightening up some things, but please email me at Nicholas.fontana@gmail.com and I can give you the latest. Either way, Super B would be the correct class for your car – you and Chad would be going heads up if he keeps his car.
Pat – you have raised a lot of good points. I’ll start from the beginning because I want to make sure to address your questions…
“Trust Factor” – yes, we are going to rely on people not blatantly cheating as we do today. For the most part this works very well, and the way I see it, there are a lot of things that people COULD do to cheat today that are hard to police. For example, I run in SSA, but there’s no way you can tell by looking at my car that I’m running Schrick Cams, ported cylinder heads, etc. In addition, as Tom Cannon mentioned, we are working through the best way to make it possible for folks to file educated protests against competitors who are bending (or breaking) the rules a bit too far. This will likely entail having competitors submit classification sheets which will be available for any and all competitors to peek at during an event. We won’t require folks submit a dyno sheet or weigh their cars…unless they are protested – then with a set of scales and a g-meter could make it pretty easy to estimate HP. Again, this is an area where we are working with Tom Cannon on how best to police within the new system – thoughts from members on this are welcome...although I think a "Club Car" might be a little too rich for our non-profit club (even if it's the perfect measuring stick).
Weight/Power – factory listed curb weight and factory listed crank horsepower and peak torque are the basis for “base classing” all Touring Class cars. This is what we do today for SS/ST cars, and it’s the basis for other clubs like NASA and CASC. The only exception is with engine swaps, where the estimated crank HP/TQ figures of the new engine are substituted for the original figures to re-baseline the car. To account for variations in handing (for example, Sam Webster’s 5-door grocery getter and a Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) have similar weight/power; however, in this system, the GT-R would receive an additional assessment because of its handing potential and would not be in the same class as Mr. Webster). As far as Super Classes, there are adjustments for body style, tires, and drivetrain layout.
Kit Cars – these generally present an issue in most classification systems. However, NASA and CASC have gone through the trouble of classing SOME mild race cars and kit cars so they do not end up in their equivalent of Super Classes. We can certainly do the same over time, specifically with something like a Formula V, SRF, etc.
Money – One of our primary goals is to reduce the amount of money someone needs to throw into their car to be competitive. After running through some theoretical car/modification combinations, we feel that a good driver can be competitive in each of the Touring Car Classes for relatively short money. A Miata, Sub/Evo, or C5 Vette could each be competitive in a couple different classes with minor, targeted bang-for-the-buck upgrades.
As for a “time” based classing system – with all due respect, that is not the proposal that’s on the table. If others would like to put in the work that Pete, Paddy, and I have on a complete rules proposal and present it to the BOD, you can certainly do so. I will say that I feel this type of class system would eliminate meaningful competition among drivers.
I’m not to say we can’t do more to encourage the new (or old) members of the club. While reducing the number of classes from 17 to 10, we could potentially consider a tweak to offer additional, non-class related trophies. For example, maybe there’s a trophy for the best group 3 or group 4 student who has been signed off to solo (similar to an auto-x “Novice” class). Maybe there could be another trophy for 25+ year members. However, the concept of a relatively linear and fair classification of vehicles provides the only meaningful way to establish competition among drivers – without there is little motivation to improve. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the newer drivers in this club have become some of the fastest with the right attitude and proper instruction.
Pete, Paddy, and I, along with the support of the BOD, have outlined a starting point. Once we roll out “Version 1” at NHMS-4 we will rely on feedback from members, and especially REAL data from the event results, to help tighten up the system for next year. Please let us know if you have suggestions to help work out the details of the new proposal. We are constantly evaluating and working in feedback that we've received from others, and we plan to do so through the end of the rules submission period. In the meantime, if you would like a DRAFT version of the classification spreadsheet to play around with, please PM or email me.
Ted – sounds like you have an older version of the spreadsheet. This is a tool for classing which we do not have for the current rules, but could help serve newer members to properly class themselves. We are still tightening up some things, but please email me at Nicholas.fontana@gmail.com and I can give you the latest. Either way, Super B would be the correct class for your car – you and Chad would be going heads up if he keeps his car.
Pat – you have raised a lot of good points. I’ll start from the beginning because I want to make sure to address your questions…
“Trust Factor” – yes, we are going to rely on people not blatantly cheating as we do today. For the most part this works very well, and the way I see it, there are a lot of things that people COULD do to cheat today that are hard to police. For example, I run in SSA, but there’s no way you can tell by looking at my car that I’m running Schrick Cams, ported cylinder heads, etc. In addition, as Tom Cannon mentioned, we are working through the best way to make it possible for folks to file educated protests against competitors who are bending (or breaking) the rules a bit too far. This will likely entail having competitors submit classification sheets which will be available for any and all competitors to peek at during an event. We won’t require folks submit a dyno sheet or weigh their cars…unless they are protested – then with a set of scales and a g-meter could make it pretty easy to estimate HP. Again, this is an area where we are working with Tom Cannon on how best to police within the new system – thoughts from members on this are welcome...although I think a "Club Car" might be a little too rich for our non-profit club (even if it's the perfect measuring stick).
Weight/Power – factory listed curb weight and factory listed crank horsepower and peak torque are the basis for “base classing” all Touring Class cars. This is what we do today for SS/ST cars, and it’s the basis for other clubs like NASA and CASC. The only exception is with engine swaps, where the estimated crank HP/TQ figures of the new engine are substituted for the original figures to re-baseline the car. To account for variations in handing (for example, Sam Webster’s 5-door grocery getter and a Nissan Skyline GT-R (R34) have similar weight/power; however, in this system, the GT-R would receive an additional assessment because of its handing potential and would not be in the same class as Mr. Webster). As far as Super Classes, there are adjustments for body style, tires, and drivetrain layout.
Kit Cars – these generally present an issue in most classification systems. However, NASA and CASC have gone through the trouble of classing SOME mild race cars and kit cars so they do not end up in their equivalent of Super Classes. We can certainly do the same over time, specifically with something like a Formula V, SRF, etc.
Money – One of our primary goals is to reduce the amount of money someone needs to throw into their car to be competitive. After running through some theoretical car/modification combinations, we feel that a good driver can be competitive in each of the Touring Car Classes for relatively short money. A Miata, Sub/Evo, or C5 Vette could each be competitive in a couple different classes with minor, targeted bang-for-the-buck upgrades.
As for a “time” based classing system – with all due respect, that is not the proposal that’s on the table. If others would like to put in the work that Pete, Paddy, and I have on a complete rules proposal and present it to the BOD, you can certainly do so. I will say that I feel this type of class system would eliminate meaningful competition among drivers.
I’m not to say we can’t do more to encourage the new (or old) members of the club. While reducing the number of classes from 17 to 10, we could potentially consider a tweak to offer additional, non-class related trophies. For example, maybe there’s a trophy for the best group 3 or group 4 student who has been signed off to solo (similar to an auto-x “Novice” class). Maybe there could be another trophy for 25+ year members. However, the concept of a relatively linear and fair classification of vehicles provides the only meaningful way to establish competition among drivers – without there is little motivation to improve. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the newer drivers in this club have become some of the fastest with the right attitude and proper instruction.
Pete, Paddy, and I, along with the support of the BOD, have outlined a starting point. Once we roll out “Version 1” at NHMS-4 we will rely on feedback from members, and especially REAL data from the event results, to help tighten up the system for next year. Please let us know if you have suggestions to help work out the details of the new proposal. We are constantly evaluating and working in feedback that we've received from others, and we plan to do so through the end of the rules submission period. In the meantime, if you would like a DRAFT version of the classification spreadsheet to play around with, please PM or email me.
- Nick
nicholas.fontana@gmail.com
1999 Mazda Miata - T50
FS: 1997 Green BMW M3 - T80/SC
RIP: 1994 White BMW 325i - SSB
nicholas.fontana@gmail.com
1999 Mazda Miata - T50
FS: 1997 Green BMW M3 - T80/SC
RIP: 1994 White BMW 325i - SSB
Re: Rules for 2013
I've always seen it as a TT organization with instruction. We train people to be fast.McMahonRacing wrote:it was my impression we were a "club" w/ a little friendly competition on the side
I don't see how we could possibly class people by lap times. Everyone would want to be driving 8/10ths during practice. Which is counter to our objective. Maybe I just don't understand what you're intenion is. If you feel strongly about it prepare and submit a proposal
-
McMahonRacing
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:39 am
- Location: Kingston NH
- Contact:
Re: Rules for 2013
I do appreciate & applaud the work you all are putting forth, not trying in anyway to distort that ...... but, any good solution that can with stand scrutity / darts stands the chance to to become a great solution ..... if we want to blindly accept the points system proposal w/o comment then so be it, just don't post anything on it and go implement it ....
Your'e right a time based system is not part of your proposal, we were talking about the points system being proposed ... I think we have eluded to some of the issues and offered a potential solution in using the "new" timing system data to assist in classing cars to generate the highest level of competition between drivers not cars ( there is no way anyone can tell anyone else how fast their particular should be as regardless it all comes down to the driver ) ... w/o needing a full on police force @ tech or pushing expenses onto individules (dyno's, scaling, equipment to maximize the class points, etc. ) ....
I also eluded to the fact that it doesn't matter to me, have been in PA all along, although I could have very easily run SPA I have chosen not too & since I have not yet seen a spread sheet ( have asked for a copy ) I can only assume I will be in SA or SU ( prob. another very small group & if in SU I highly doubt I could ever beat Bruce ) I can only suggest that we remember the little guy & try our level best w/ all the tools at hand to make the system as close to ideal as possible, the points system is a great place to start it just needs a dash of "reality" attached to it to be great ....
Your'e right a time based system is not part of your proposal, we were talking about the points system being proposed ... I think we have eluded to some of the issues and offered a potential solution in using the "new" timing system data to assist in classing cars to generate the highest level of competition between drivers not cars ( there is no way anyone can tell anyone else how fast their particular should be as regardless it all comes down to the driver ) ... w/o needing a full on police force @ tech or pushing expenses onto individules (dyno's, scaling, equipment to maximize the class points, etc. ) ....
I also eluded to the fact that it doesn't matter to me, have been in PA all along, although I could have very easily run SPA I have chosen not too & since I have not yet seen a spread sheet ( have asked for a copy ) I can only assume I will be in SA or SU ( prob. another very small group & if in SU I highly doubt I could ever beat Bruce ) I can only suggest that we remember the little guy & try our level best w/ all the tools at hand to make the system as close to ideal as possible, the points system is a great place to start it just needs a dash of "reality" attached to it to be great ....
Last edited by McMahonRacing on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
breakaway500
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 2663
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:47 am
- Location: In my shop,usually.
Re: Rules for 2013
"As for a “time” based classing system – with all due respect, that is not the proposal that’s on the table."
Nick,I fully understand,and am sorry for "mucking up" the waters.(this will be my last post..
)
As far as a lap time based classification system not being competitive,you could not be more incorrect. Your closest lap time competitors would be in YOUR class,at every event. If you are competing to build the fastest car in class,well..that is another story.
There would be no need for policing of class rules,(only saftey related) no need to build to the last possible option in each class to be "competitive" and if you didn't have the funds for new tires,more hp..etc every time trial,you could still run and potentially win your lap time level,with whatever you have. (providing you beat you next 9 closest competitors in class)
Mick wrote:
"Everyone would want to be driving 8/10ths during practice"
That would still work. IF everyone was driving at 8/10's..their lap time percentage spread would be the same as if they were all running 10/10th. Yes,classing by lap times would require everyone to do their best to post a qualifying time.
You know,the honor system. Nobody would sandbag,right....?
I don't really feel strongly about any classification system. In my mind, the fastest car and driver at any event is the "winner". All "classes" do is make someone a "winner" at some other rules regulated level.
Now, I will STFU...
Nick,I fully understand,and am sorry for "mucking up" the waters.(this will be my last post..
) As far as a lap time based classification system not being competitive,you could not be more incorrect. Your closest lap time competitors would be in YOUR class,at every event. If you are competing to build the fastest car in class,well..that is another story.
There would be no need for policing of class rules,(only saftey related) no need to build to the last possible option in each class to be "competitive" and if you didn't have the funds for new tires,more hp..etc every time trial,you could still run and potentially win your lap time level,with whatever you have. (providing you beat you next 9 closest competitors in class)
Mick wrote:
"Everyone would want to be driving 8/10ths during practice"
That would still work. IF everyone was driving at 8/10's..their lap time percentage spread would be the same as if they were all running 10/10th. Yes,classing by lap times would require everyone to do their best to post a qualifying time.
You know,the honor system. Nobody would sandbag,right....?
I don't really feel strongly about any classification system. In my mind, the fastest car and driver at any event is the "winner". All "classes" do is make someone a "winner" at some other rules regulated level.
Now, I will STFU...
It's not what you drive, it's how you drive. "Lap times matter"
-
McMahonRacing
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:39 am
- Location: Kingston NH
- Contact:
Re: Rules for 2013
I think I am w/ Mark ......
" Now, I will STFU... "
" Now, I will STFU... "
-
blindsidefive0
- Moderator
- Posts: 390
- Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:00 pm
- Location: Boston, MA
Re: Rules for 2013
Pat - just sent you an email. Your cars would be Super B (with 300rwhp motor) and Super A (with 530crank-hp motor).
All - no need to "STFU"; we need comments and questions from members to make sure we iron out the kinks if this new system is going to be successful. All we ask is that they are related to the system being proposed so they can actually be considered and potentially incorporated into the 2013 version.
All - no need to "STFU"; we need comments and questions from members to make sure we iron out the kinks if this new system is going to be successful. All we ask is that they are related to the system being proposed so they can actually be considered and potentially incorporated into the 2013 version.
- Nick
nicholas.fontana@gmail.com
1999 Mazda Miata - T50
FS: 1997 Green BMW M3 - T80/SC
RIP: 1994 White BMW 325i - SSB
nicholas.fontana@gmail.com
1999 Mazda Miata - T50
FS: 1997 Green BMW M3 - T80/SC
RIP: 1994 White BMW 325i - SSB
-
brucesallen
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 9:56 am
- Location: NH
- Contact:
Re: Rules for 2013
I hate the idea of a bracket system. Car classification strictly on the car, not the driver--- unless I start losing!
Bruce Allen
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
Re: Rules for 2013
Can someone please explain the urgency to adopt this new proposal now? If it can be used in parallel with the current system, can we use them in parallel next season? It feels rushed and I feel blindsided by it (no pun intended).
Forum discussion is good but replacing the entire ruleset ought to be decided by the membership. If our elected officials wish to honor club by-laws they will put the proposal before the membership for an up-or-down vote.
A good first step would be to publish the complete proposal so all members can be armed with the facts.
Forum discussion is good but replacing the entire ruleset ought to be decided by the membership. If our elected officials wish to honor club by-laws they will put the proposal before the membership for an up-or-down vote.
A good first step would be to publish the complete proposal so all members can be armed with the facts.
Re: Rules for 2013
Maybe I missed a post, but I don't think this is a done deal or intend to make anyone feel blindsided; quite the opposite. They are doing a trial run at the last event of the season so all members can see what this truly means for them, and it will continue to be tweaked and eventually voted on over the winter, so members have time to implement changes to their cars if needed. I've worked with Condo Association Rules for a few years, and that is difficult enough, I cant imagine tackling this proposal with so many variables. Thank you again Nick and others.boltonite wrote:Can someone please explain the urgency to adopt this new proposal now? If it can be used in parallel with the current system, can we use them in parallel next season? It feels rushed and I feel blindsided by it (no pun intended).
Forum discussion is good but replacing the entire ruleset ought to be decided by the membership. If our elected officials wish to honor club by-laws they will put the proposal before the membership for an up-or-down vote.
A good first step would be to publish the complete proposal so all members can be armed with the facts.
I've been lucky enough to see a few versions of the spreadsheet too; and I think once folks see this tool and the proposed rule book revisions, this will make a lot more sense, so please keep that in mind.
In terms of the comments about forgetting members or discouraging folks based on this type of car classification system. I joined this club with a stock '91 Miata with 15" wheels w/street rubber which meant St4. The instruction and friends I have made working towards improving my skills keep me coming back, I never felt discouraged about my lap times or placement in the class, nor would the fellow members allow it (I always heard about being consistent and improving). Over the last few years I increasing the number of events I do and have been more competitive each time on a limited budget. Every event a fellow ST4 competitor helps me get closer lap times to the 1st place St4 car. I don't have the best eye site, but see similar competitiveness throughout the paddock amongst all classes.
Time based system - at the last event I went 2 seconds faster during my TT than any lap time I had run during the weekend, and it completely surprised me.
Paul G.
#12
#12
Re: Rules for 2013
It may appear that this proposal to change our classing has come on suddenly, but it's actually been an annual topic in the fall " rules change" board meetings for at least the last two years. As i recall, 3- 4 years ago there was a similar effort to revamp the classes but more within the current arrangement , that ultimately died, I think because at the time there wasn't enough votes that agreed the current system was that bad.boltonite wrote:Can someone please explain the urgency to adopt this new proposal now? If it can be used in parallel with the current system, can we use them in parallel next season? It feels rushed and I feel blindsided by it (no pun intended).
Forum discussion is good but replacing the entire ruleset ought to be decided by the membership. If our elected officials wish to honor club by-laws they will put the proposal before the membership for an up-or-down vote.
A good first step would be to publish the complete proposal so all members can be armed with the facts.
Not to get all "Robert's rules" here, but a review of the by-laws does not require that any changes to the "Event and Time trial" rules be voted on by the membership. The duly elected officers and BOD are empowered by the members to write the rulebook. Of course, like any good democracy, the governed have the ultimate say either by imploring their elected representative to vote a certain way, or voting them out and electing someone who will..But that's all election year talk...
I don't agree with running in parallel over a season; I think we're better off with a test run in parallel for this last event, an examination and adjustments in November December and a yes/no vote at the December Board meeting. Dragging it out over a year won't help- we should be able to make the call after one event whether to invest the effort to fine tune it to work or shitcan it.
If we go with it for 2013, and it for some reason turns out really bad, we can always chuck it and go back.
I'm excited ( and relieved that I don't have to write it) that we've got some talented and truly interested members willing to do the homework on our behalf. There is not a fully formed proposal offered yet to be voted on. The primary author of this new system, Nick Fontana, has offered to forward copies of this work-in-progress system to all that ask, and I encourage everyone to do their car and send Nick the results . The more data we get, the better version 1.0 of this will be.
Again sounding political, I see the new plan as being more inclusive to all, and a way to allow the much more diverse variety of track-capable cars that can be had now to find a competitive place to play vs. the small selection of "sports cars" running in the 60, 70s that formed the original basis for the current classes we have. As I've said before, the past 10+ years of "rules creep" has created a situation where most of the SP cars aren't street legal, and most of the ST cars are track -only because the arms race to be competitive has made them unfriendly for street use. This points based system puts more power in the car owner's hands to modify as much or as little as they want, and still have a place to compete,
Tom Cannon
Former COM Chief Steward (fka Chief of Operations, Chief of Tech, assistant BBQ cook, Club Secretary....I been around a while)
#26 - 2000 Black Miata (sold) - co-driver of the orange 318ti .. thanks Scott!
Former COM Chief Steward (fka Chief of Operations, Chief of Tech, assistant BBQ cook, Club Secretary....I been around a while)
#26 - 2000 Black Miata (sold) - co-driver of the orange 318ti .. thanks Scott!
Re: Rules for 2013
I have seen the new rules, and i am very excited for them. I really hope that they can be implemented before the start of next season.
I'm anxious to see the mock results from the upcoming event, even though i won't be present.
I'm anxious to see the mock results from the upcoming event, even though i won't be present.
-
McMahonRacing
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 193
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:39 am
- Location: Kingston NH
- Contact:
Re: Rules for 2013
I know I was gonna "STFU" ... guees I lied, go figure:
I would encourage anyone who's car is going to run SA/SB to shoot me a note w/ there car #, general description and their last few times, be happy to enter them in a sheet and show you how it works out for our potential run group .... most of us have been here long enough to know w/whom we are competative or not, might be a neat exercise as one event really isn't enough of a sampling .... would really like to see just how competative SA/SB for myself if nothing else.
Actually COM has enough history on the web site to " run the new points system proposal " against past events, if all drivers were able to run their cars thru the present spread sheet I bet they alone could tell if they would be cometative w/in their new class, again most of us have been here long enough to know w/whom we are competative or not, might be a neat exercise as one event really isn't enough of a sampling.
The time spread between the only two cars I can honestly talk too is as follows:
Car # 67A -- currently PA ( could very easily be SPA, but felt it wasn't appropriate so I have stayed in PA) --- would be classed as SB w/ the small motor & Sa w/ the big motor
Car # 11A -- currently SPA --- would go direct to SA
WGI
#67A - 2.10.078 (little motor)
#11A - 2.20.725
NHMS Oval
# 67A - 1.11.6 (big motor), 1.11.9 (little motor)
# 11A - 1.16.36 , 1.17.392
NHMS Chicane - Chicane
# 67A - 1.13.4 (big motor), 1.15.1 (small motor)
# 11A - 1.22 - 1.20 (roughly as he broke this yr. and was out sick most of last year)
To me it does not seem that competative for car # 11A & short of an DSQ & rain it has been thay way since 2006.
Yes, this is only a very very very small sampling but it is the only one I can honestly speak too, my fear being if it happens in this one small sample group it will happen in another.
I would encourage anyone who's car is going to run SA/SB to shoot me a note w/ there car #, general description and their last few times, be happy to enter them in a sheet and show you how it works out for our potential run group .... most of us have been here long enough to know w/whom we are competative or not, might be a neat exercise as one event really isn't enough of a sampling .... would really like to see just how competative SA/SB for myself if nothing else.
Actually COM has enough history on the web site to " run the new points system proposal " against past events, if all drivers were able to run their cars thru the present spread sheet I bet they alone could tell if they would be cometative w/in their new class, again most of us have been here long enough to know w/whom we are competative or not, might be a neat exercise as one event really isn't enough of a sampling.
The time spread between the only two cars I can honestly talk too is as follows:
Car # 67A -- currently PA ( could very easily be SPA, but felt it wasn't appropriate so I have stayed in PA) --- would be classed as SB w/ the small motor & Sa w/ the big motor
Car # 11A -- currently SPA --- would go direct to SA
WGI
#67A - 2.10.078 (little motor)
#11A - 2.20.725
NHMS Oval
# 67A - 1.11.6 (big motor), 1.11.9 (little motor)
# 11A - 1.16.36 , 1.17.392
NHMS Chicane - Chicane
# 67A - 1.13.4 (big motor), 1.15.1 (small motor)
# 11A - 1.22 - 1.20 (roughly as he broke this yr. and was out sick most of last year)
To me it does not seem that competative for car # 11A & short of an DSQ & rain it has been thay way since 2006.
Yes, this is only a very very very small sampling but it is the only one I can honestly speak too, my fear being if it happens in this one small sample group it will happen in another.
Last edited by McMahonRacing on Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Rules for 2013
Yes I was at those meetings and I support a change ... if the majority of members agree.dinoracer wrote: It may appear that this proposal to change our classing has come on suddenly, but it's actually been an annual topic in the fall " rules change" board meetings for at least the last two years.
COM SPORTS CAR CLUB, INC.dinoracer wrote: Not to get all "Robert's rules" here, but a review of the by-laws does not require that any changes to the "Event and Time trial" rules be voted on by the membership. The duly elected officers and BOD are empowered by the members to write the rulebook. Of course, like any good democracy, the governed have the ultimate say ...
BY-LAWS
ARTICLE II MEMBERSHIP, PRIVILEGES, AND DUES
SECTION 2 - PRIVILEGES
Active members are entitled to all COM privileges ... and may vote during general elections and on any other matters so brought before the general membership pursuant to these By-Laws.
ARTICLE V MEETING OF THE MEMBERS
SECTION 1 - ANNUAL BUSINESS MEETING
The annual business meeting of COM shall be held in January of each year for the election of Officers and members of the Board, for an annual report of the Officers and committees and for any other such business as may come before the meeting.
SECTION 2 - SPECIAL MEETINGS
In addition, special meetings of the general membership may be called by the President, or by a majority of the Board of Directors. Furthermore, special meetings of the general membership shall be called by the Secretary, or in the case of the death, absence, incapacity or refusal of the Secretary, by any other Officer of the club, upon written application of three (3) or more members in good standing. In case none of the Officers is able and willing to call a special meeting, the Supreme Judicial or superior Court of the State of New Hampshire, upon application of three (3) or more members in good standing, shall have jurisdiction and equity to authorize one or more of such members to call a meeting by giving such notice as is required by law.
Seriously?dinoracer wrote: If we go with it for 2013, and it for some reason turns out really bad, we can always chuck it and go back.
From what i read at the start of this thread I thought otherwise.dinoracer wrote: There is not a fully formed proposal offered yet to be voted on.
I agree 100%. But imo something this big should go before the members for vote/approval.dinoracer wrote: Again sounding political, I see the new plan as being more inclusive to all, and a way to allow the much more diverse variety of track-capable cars that can be had now to find a competitive place to play vs. the small selection of "sports cars" running in the 60, 70s that formed the original basis for the current classes we have. As I've said before, the past 10+ years of "rules creep" has created a situation where most of the SP cars aren't street legal, and most of the ST cars are track -only because the arms race to be competitive has made them unfriendly for street use. This points based system puts more power in the car owner's hands to modify as much or as little as they want, and still have a place to compete,
-
brucesallen
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 9:56 am
- Location: NH
- Contact:
Re: Rules for 2013
Pat,
Right from the first draft of the new rules proposal I was concerned about the classification of kit/custom street legal cars because I have one although I have not run it in a couple of years. We kit car owners must take care to look at the rule adjustment factors to ensure we compensate for high center of gravity and roll centers and other factors that allow my 175 hp Formula car to beat your 550 hp awesome Cobra in lap time.
My "Lotary 7" car is street registered and legall with no front fenders in NH but would compete with my formula car. I said I could put fenders on and I tried counting up the points based on the fact that is is a highly modified 94 RX-7 turbo and, since almost everything is modified, it accumulated 150 points!
Right from the first draft of the new rules proposal I was concerned about the classification of kit/custom street legal cars because I have one although I have not run it in a couple of years. We kit car owners must take care to look at the rule adjustment factors to ensure we compensate for high center of gravity and roll centers and other factors that allow my 175 hp Formula car to beat your 550 hp awesome Cobra in lap time.
My "Lotary 7" car is street registered and legall with no front fenders in NH but would compete with my formula car. I said I could put fenders on and I tried counting up the points based on the fact that is is a highly modified 94 RX-7 turbo and, since almost everything is modified, it accumulated 150 points!
Bruce Allen
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest