Rules for 2013

[McMahonRacing]

Where did ya get the spreedsheet ? Anyone want to send me a copy, be interested ........ patmcmahonracing@yahoo.com
Wonder where 2753 lbs / 300 rwhp puts me ...or where i end up w/530 crank hp & 2844 lbs ........ hhhuuummmm

[DanDarcy]

I like the age thing -1point for each decade after 30, -2 points for each decade after 50

I also like some classes by time. This is a good way to run new members, after all we are trying to time all entrants on all laps so we will have times. Say have a class at NHMS C-C 1.35 and greater, one of 1.31 to 1.35, one of 1.28 to 1.31.etc. If you go 5% faster in time trials you move to the next faster class. If you win the class 4 times you move to the next fastest class.

If we adopt the proposed rule change, it will be no different than what we have now, some will like it some will hate it and most members will be indifferent. The proposed rules could make some cars that are competitive not competitive and some that are not competitive now into real competitors. The real problem is following what ever rule set we. Right now , as a self policing club, I believe 50% or more of our competitors are missed classed ! I don't see where a point based system will make it any easier to police classifications.

[Dtangard]

Thank you guys for putting this together. A points based system seems like it will be great for competition. A lap time based system seems like a step backwards. Points based rewards driver skill and build strategy, lap time based does not. I don't want to compete with a slow driver driving a much faster car (a supercar vs my 110hp miata). I want to compete with cars that have similiar performance potential to my own car. I've only been competing with COM for 2 years, but the reason I enjoy the club so much is the close competition in the ST4 class. If I came in and competed in a less competitive class, I would've lost (some) interest and I would've learned much less.

I agree with keeping newbies interested in COM, but I think trying to set it up so non-competitive drivers can get a trophy deligitimizes the competition. I think the COM culture with the track time, instructing, BBQ, and genuinely good people will keep the newbies coming back for more.

Also if there is a question over weight, couldn't we weigh the car on the scales at NH (if the question arises at NH)? Also could you guys send me the spreadsheet? I want to start thinking about winter projects

[nateh]

The main objective (at least as I see it) is to increase competition. Presently, there are is large overlap in performance between classes. In any given class, there are many cars whose potential is far below the best in the class. In many classes, there are only one or two truly competitive cars. In a points-based system, there will still be cars that are uncompetitive in their class - but far fewer than is now the case, assuming we do things half right.

At present, one of the most competitive (and fun) classes we have is ST4. There are multiple drivers in ST4 who can reasonably hope to win a trophy - and by golly, do they ever try hard! This is, unfortunately, an unusual class in this regard. (And, we might note that most of those drivers are driving Miatas. Nothing against Miatas, but I like variety.)

I think it is reasonable to hope that under the new system there will be at 4-6 classes with a similar level of competitiveness to what we now see in ST4. I'm very much looking forward to this.

Along the way, there will be many heated arguments and thoughtful discussions - and adjustments will be made, as we regularly have done with the current system. There will be some drivers whose ability to win at any given event is reduced, some of whom now completely dominate their classes. There will be many more for whom the chance of a win - against real competition - will be increased.

If we all try to take things in good spirit, we will all benefit from the healthy competition - and the healthy club - that results. May new and ever funkier rivalries arise!

[962porsche]

i'm happy to see some thing getting done about the classing of cars . like nate stated there is to large of a gap between cars in classes . my D-sports car is out classed at this time because it's a dated car now and yet i'm stuck in FP . were it would be better classed in PC . power to weight is how cars should be classed . this winter i'm planing on up dating the car with a new lighter weight back half and independent rear suspension .
at the last NHMS event john spain could only turn a 1:17 in my car the best i could do was a 1:15 with a 1:16 average time . so with a time like that i tend not to wast time and gas doing the TT's .

[McMahonRacing]

Some more very good points, all for change as long as we can encompass everyone, if we can't we shouldn't !!

Dan, actually kinda suprized we agree on this one too such an extent ... kinda cool !!!

Very simply put a points system bases everything on the car and is really nothing more than a new set of "rules" and rules simply means who can figure out how to push them the best or comes w/ the most $$$$ wins, just like now.

Allowing realistic timming ... be it a factor or a true time based system, it bases it on both car/driver & I kinda think that may allow more competition for all, not just ST4 ( if there are 4 +/- car capable of winning at anytime what about tall the others in class are they ever gonna get the chance to win or are they just back markers to keep the feild full, they deserve a solid chance as well ).

Rememeber most of all the "driver" pays the bills, the clubs & his own, our goal should be to keep them as interested as possible be they a newbie or a gray hair ... if folks feel totally uncompetative how long are they going to want to pay the bill.

[Chrispy]

I like the sentiment behind trying to give everyone a chance at winning, but in reality time based classing just won't work. It's bracket racing or feel good racing, racing is supposed to be about the driver and the best driver should win. You can't just give everyone a trophy at the end of the day and call it a competition.

Right now only 25% of a class is competitive because cars have different performance potentials. The current ST4 class with 16 vehicles would likely end up getting spread across 3 different classes, those that were hanging out at the bottom of the class may likely actually have a good shot in their new class. It will be a lot less about $$$ than it is now, since sure you can spend dollars but anything you add will also add points and potentially bump you up to a faster class so spend wisely.

So why do people come back to COM events now? I don't think it is because they can think they can win, although i think there is that desire in all of us. It's the people, the track etiquette, the high quality instruction, and the desire to learn and improve as a driver (and possibly as a person).

[962porsche]

i like the idea of timing people in the morning runs .
the thing about that is who and how are they going to be timed ?
in my car i have wired in a tran x AMB lap timer . other clubs rent them out to the drivers .
could some one sand bag by timimg them in the morning runs ? yes !
but if you set it up as if you beat your time set in the morning runs you can get DQ .


i my self go to comscc event because of the people and the track time . i don't do the TT all that much one reason is the other cars in my class are much faster than my car .

[McMahonRacing]

Somthing may also be getting lost in the translation here ...... it was my impression we were a "club" w/ a little friendly competition on the side, we are suppose to have fun, we are suppose to educate drivers ( bring them along ) not discourage them, not expect them to spend to same money that some others can etc etc etc, it can take yrs for some to get up to speed why discourage them ...... let's face it, we are in reality a stepping stone, part of a ladder program for some & for others we are a just a place to go fast and relax w/o the hassles & expense of banging doors ....... it is definatly a hard mix to get right .......

For those that desire that high degree of of competition just maybe they should be looking to a "racing organization" .....

Since the club now has a timming system, seemed to work pretty darn good @ WGI, why would we not want to take advantage of it & the available data ....

Yes ... maybe 25% of a class is competative but, I would hazard to say that is more due to driver & $$$ than too the car itself and I think that is the point being missed .... maximizing the rules, any set of rules takes $$$, maybe there are 4 +/- cars that have the same budget so it comes down to the driver ( ie: Spec Racing ) I just don't feel that we should not look at a way to bring competition to the other 75% of the class .... points to a degree will do that but w/o a real time element it wil just be the same old same old .....

[breakaway500]

"I like the sentiment behind trying to give everyone a chance at winning, but in reality time based classing just won't work. It's bracket racing or feel good racing, racing is supposed to be about the driver and the best driver should win. You can't just give everyone a trophy at the end of the day and call it a competition."

What??? I didn't say anything about giving everyone a trophy..Hell,that is just about what we do now,with 17 classes! (and many classes only have one participant)

Let's say you have 100 competitors. They all run the TT day morning practice sessions,and lap times are recorded. You take those times and make 10 "classes". The top ten fastest lap times would be group 1. The second 10 fastest lap times would be group two.And so on. Now you run time trials.
Out of those groups of cars, 1 through 10,the driver that runs the fastest time of the individual group wins that class.
I really don't see how you can call that "feel good" competition,as your closest competitor will be in your group,and not 8 seconds off your pace,like what is so common on classifying by equipment potential currently,for many classes.
Don't dismiss lap time classification as noncompetitive..if anything,it will be the closest competition available because every group will have similar times from every car, one through 10.
Personally,I feel ANY form of classing is nothing more than "feel good" trophy awarding;
The fastest car/driver during any given event is just that..number one...and so on right down to the slowest time.
If you are trying to class event participants to promote close,level competition,doing it by any method other than actual lap times is folly.

The only way you can have a somewhat level competitive playing field classing by equipment is to have all specific vehicle and tire requirements for all class vehicles the exact same,with lots of officials checking everything for compliance..like they do in most sanctioned racing organizations.

[Georgethefierce]

I'm with Chris on this one. A big reason I joined COM was the competition and the club is known and respected for being a place where the talent level is higher than your average HPDE organization. I love the reclassing idea and applaud the people that took the time and effort to make a change that was pretty obviously needed. I also love the open discussion going on here and the ideas being thrown out. All discussion is good discussion!

[962porsche]

i know just what your saying !
and i do agree to a point . but how many other people do what i do with comscc ? thats just do day one or will do day two and just not do the TT .
what is the average of drivers that sign up for the 1st day and not the 2nd ?
my guess would be about 15 to 20 % lose then on day two how many don't do the TT my guess would be about 2 % .
it's not about just giving a trophy to every one but i have said many times the car classing is just not far at all .

[iamrazor]

I also really like this idea... while I reserve the right to lightly criticize..

seriously though, I'd love to see this as part of registration / driver profile. If anyone wants to get this running in some web format, I'd be happy to look at / lend a hand / do some coding.

[timmmy]

About frikin time

Overall I believe the proposed point based system with HP/TQ/weight is the right way to go. I also agree with many comments here that the hard part is base classification for specialty cars. Lastly I also concur that dyno testing is the really tough part as all cars need to be tested on the same type of dyno with the same correciton numbers and this is near impossible unless the club has access to such a dyno full time. (A club member and friend of mine happens to have a mobile hub based dyno that is portable to events, it can do 2wd & awd to 1500HP and I am sure the owner would be available for discussion on its use, however dyno testing a car is at least an hour per car given setup time and thats a lot of hours for every car at the club)

It seems to me that drivers can submit any weight and HP number they like if their car does not have a base classification or has extensive mods, weight is easy to check, particularly at our home track NHMS as there is a scale there that we could likely use at tech to have all cars roll through. The HP number is only going to be an issue if somebody gets contested by another competitor, and that is only going to happen when competition is close which is out target here after all (or somebody is a whiney little bitch ) My point is that the use of dyno verification is probably only needed for 10-20% of the total field. A lot of our members simply are not that concerned about outright competitiveness, they are however concerned with fair classification so they can measure their performance against their rivals. Certainly class winners should likely be tested at the end of the year to make sure they didn't cheat, and some margin of error will need to be accounted for on the HP thing.

Back to classification, certainly for most of the field there are factory numbers to use as a base. The 'Super classes' can catch anything that is way out there modification wise (Like most of my cars with engine swaps - is there a point penalty for engine swap?) Kit cars are the tricky ones. It boggles my mind that a Lotus 7 replica can be an SPC car in the current rule set given the weight. HP/weight should be able to resolve this, but kit cars likely will need to be dyno'd unless they are in a class system all of their own.

I personally look forward to reviewing the new proposal in more detail. My 2001 Miata ST3 used to be competitive until a rule change bumped faster cars (BMW's) down to ST3, a points based system would probably have taken care of that issue.

One thing the club could do to settle some arguments about car performance is invest in a club car, Doesnt matter what it is, as long as it has minimal prep done other than safety. If two drivers competing for points are close, and fingers get pointed for illegal upgrades, the two drivers in question get the option to go out back to back in the same club car for 3 hot laps to see who is the better driver If either driver wrecks the car they get to fund it being fixed and sit out a season (13/13 rule)

Keep the discussion coming, its a good one.

H

[Georgethefierce]

I like the club car idea! i ran a hillclimb with NEHA recently and a bunch of guys took runs in this!