Rules for 2013

[TroyV]

I have been messing with the spreadsheet Nick and the gang have put out for a couple weeks. Even though there may be a couple of holes, I see it as a huge improvement over the current rules set. I'm of the opinion that a well thought out points system can eliminate rules creep, and also filters out arbitrary or subjective rules. Rules debates will become how many points are assessed for a thing. Adding a thing, or removing a thing that affects weight or power may have an assessment. Sometimes the assessment is free, the rest of the time there are points added...pretty easy. You can't keep folks who want to cheat from cheating, but we have a pretty good group when it comes to that kind of stuff.

I can tell you, that the first thing I'm doing if the rules are passed, is pulling the disgusting, puke covered carpets from my car. I'll be happy that is one of those useless rules justifiably headed for oblivion.

[McMahonRacing]

Good points .... but what about the newbie who get's classed in ST4 ( or whatever the new # turns out to be ), say it takes him two yrs. to come up to a competitive speed .... for those two years what keeps him interested in coming back and getting his/her butt kicked ..... there needs to be some allowance for a natural progression of skill / lap time / car to keep folks feeling as though they are competitive w/in a group ..... as they progress they get bumped up .....

hp/weight ... only works w/ real #'s ( ex: can anyone tell me what my car weigh's or should weigh or what motor it has in it this time ... what about my back-up car (351?ci in a Fox Mustang w/ unknown hp #'s) ), NASA makes this portion work w/ real data ....

Honestly I do appreciate the work being put into this, just looking to have all the bases covered going forward ( myself being in PA now, I suspect I will maybe be one class down from an open wheel car in in SU?, so I don't have much to say about the classing for myself, it it others & growth that I am interetsed in ).....

[PaddyMcP]

hp/weight ... only works w/ real #'s ( ex: can anyone tell me what my car weigh's or should weigh or what motor it has in it this time ... what about my back-up car (351?ci in a Fox Mustang w/ unknown hp #'s) ), NASA makes this portion work w/ real data ....
.

It's a little tough to have thoughts on a rule book we haven't published for everyone to see yet. This is kind of a teaser thread for now. I think the real discussion will begin when we expose the club to the new revision and the members actually read the revision. Let me hit on a quick point in response to that above comment.

Hp/weight only works with real numbers. Exactly. In the proposal you'll find provision for actually measuring these 2 basic foundations of the classing system. If cars are in question, they will be weighed and their horsepower measured.

Another extremely important note I want to mention - the majority of entrants (almost all of our current SS, ST, SPC cars will not be required to get their car dyno'd prior to an event to classify their cars. HP and weight of stock cars are public information and is how COM currently classifies our SS and ST base classes.

A huge amount of attention has been given to keep these great battles in ST4 going in 2013, and also create more great battles just like it.

I hope we all keep an open mind and help each other out during the next 6 months. This is a huge upgrade in the accuracy of classing cars.

-Paddy

[dinoracer]

Pat

You're raising good points, keep it up.

As we have now, there is no way to make a system where every car is "competitive" in a class - we don't have it now, and won't going forward. I think most people understand that they have to decide where to play, and how far to take their car in that pursuit.

The main goal of this re-arrangement is to acknowledge that in the years since the current system was established, the cars that are available have changed and the available performance modifications have changed. We're also saying that there are many cases where someone buys a car, makes some minor or not so minor modifications to it, and then finds COM. We don't want to have these new folks bumped into much higher classes because of some mods to their car that don't necessarily increase performance - for example, fender flares put you in "P", regardless of what else you may have done.

I've reviewed the new format ,and I think once we get the details ironed out, it will be an improvement for all.

As to enforcement ( as that's become my job), yes, we're going to be on the honor system on most of it, just like we are now. We expect all to act like adults, be honest with themselves and their follow competitors. We also expect that if you think someone in your class is bending beyond comfort, that you'll speak to them politely about it, or bring it to a Scrutineer if needed for help. We're still working on how to share the "tech" sheets as needed to give all a chance to see what's up with each car.

[Chrispy]

I don't think new drivers really expect to be competing for a podium spot, if they were before it was because there was nobody in their class. That doesn't sound like much fun to me. Even as a novice driver I would want to know what the real bar was so you have something to strive for. Besides, a novice driver with a relatively stock car likely will be running in a lower class than one that has been prepped with suspension, lightened and has sticky tires, so it is fair, it's just up to the driver to reach his potential. The classing is much more linear and less confusing that the NASA system. And it is certainly much more fair than the current system where a novice shows up having bolted a a BBK and automatically is in an almost anything goes SP class. The number of almost stock vehicles running in SP last year was very high and almost none of them had any hope of being truly competitive since they weren't built to the limit of the class.

[McMahonRacing]

Totally agree and totally open minded, just putting some things out there for folks to think about, I am sure you know what NASA does ( I know where I fall w/in NASA & SCCA = totally out gunned ), so far this has actually been a pretty good discussion .....

hp/weight .... I'll touch on an example a bit here for reference ( 2300 lbs w/ driver, 415hp @ the crank vs 2800 lbs, 365hp @ the crank .... the 2800 lb car is considerably quicker and in 5 yrs the only time the 2300 lb car has beaten me is when I have goofed - off'd it or rain'd unexpectedly ) ... would be great to verify them, but what about the reality factor ?

So am I to assume then " required to get their car dyno'd prior to an event " we are going to make this a requirement for some cars & @ who's expense & what "dyno" ?

Would it be safe to assume that all cars w/ be weighed as well ?

We just can't forget the little guys, the newbie's or those simply outside the majority ----- maybe the perf. handling adjustment is based on actual lap times.

Give a newbie a trophy or a solid chance and I bet he comes back, once hooked & improvement begins he moves up, I agree what we have now doesn't always work and change is a good thing, it is just we have a chance to make some real changes that shouldn't just benefit the majority but should benefit all ..... try to remember it is not all about the car, it is also very much about the person behind the wheel .....

[paultg]

Pete, Paddy and Nick put alot of time and effort into this proposal. Nice work guys. I think it is a very good system on paper and I will be very curious to see how the mock-results sort out at NHMS4. While no system is perfect I think this new system opens the door for improving the competition factor with our club. The high level of skill and competition in ST4 is the main reason I have gotten so hooked on running with COM. I think it would be great to see this level of participation and competition in more classes. Besides tires and skill, competition is the next best factor in making you faster. Trying to chase that guy down who is just a little faster than you, or having someone nip at your heels is what makes it all that much more fun.

Could not agree more. Looking forward to the next event. - Paul G.

[Chrispy]

hp/weight .... I'll touch on an example a bit here for reference ( 2300 lbs w/ driver, 415hp @ the crank vs 2800 lbs, 365hp @ the crank .... the 2800 lb car is considerably quicker and in 5 yrs the only time the 2300 lb car has beaten me is when I have goofed - off'd it or rain'd unexpectedly ) ... would be great to verify them, but what about the reality factor ?

What is the difference in chassis setup between the cars? Besides that you are obviously a better driver, it is also possible that you have done a better job of setting up your car. Also at 260hp/ton you probably find it a lot easier to get the power down vs a car with 360hp/ton.

Getting cars weighted is probably fairly easy since weight is a calibrated unit of measurement, dyno's is more difficult. That is why for the stock classing factory hp/torque is being used and then points applied for power mods such as altering intake, exhaust, tune, modifying turbo's etc. It is easier to police as well. Kit cars are going to be complicated because there is no stock spec per sé. The trial run will be good in that respect as they will be able to shake out some of the issues.

[McMahonRacing]

Actualy had a 530hp motor @ the begining of the season, hooked just fine and will take more ..... it will be back in for next season I hope, but for now the little motor .... I have driven both cars, they are distinctly & drastically different and I doubt very highly I could make one work as well as the other ...... yes, kit cars are going to be a problem as they are not cut and dried as well as some of the other "speciality cars" that have in the past benn classed a bit differently than maybe they should have ....

I guess this is all part of the main point, the little we have been told about the points sytem relates to what someone thinks a car will or will not do based on percieved equipment, be it a production car or not and that is not always reality .... w/o putting some degree of emphasis on the driver I suspect we will inadvertantly leave some folks way out in the cold and un-competative in class, granted prob. not many but if are to change might as well fix it for good ....

Exactly how would we expect two cars w/ the same points number to run if one has new tires for TT and the other has to run his old ones or one has a "fresh" stock motor and the other doesn't ... yes, maximizing the class rules and for those that are that competative & have that much $$$ it is great but what about the guy that is just barley making the event, has a family, running an older motor, running old tires or just maybe a little grayer than the next guy/girl ..... let's not forget about them, they are also a big part of what makes COM a good group & the only way I know to capture them is to give some allowence to "times" w/o that I suspect we will very shortly be right back where we are now, just another set of rules .....

[Mark Swinehart]

Sounds like a great idea. Credits points based on the driver's age.

Bruce, Frank, Sam what do you thing of this?

[Chrispy]

1 point credit for every decade over the age of 30?

[nhsilversti]

doing the spreadsheet for super class im not really sure what to think. 440whp 3520 weight (last time car was weighed), dot tires, 255mm, awd, and 4 or more doors shows my car should be SUPER A with corrected power to weight of 9. looking at the formula on the spread sheet =IF(C13<6,"Super Unlimited",IF(B14>7.75,"Super B","SuperA")) shouldnt my car be SUPER B as it is >7.75 ? i really dont know excel spread sheets that well so keep that in mind.

ted

[nhsilversti]

1 point credit for every decade over the age of 30?

thats just great.....

frank will be in t-10

[Chrispy]

doing the spreadsheet for super class im not really sure what to think. 440whp 3520 weight (last time car was weighed), dot tires, 255mm, awd, and 4 or more doors shows my car should be SUPER A with corrected power to weight of 9. looking at the formula on the spread sheet =IF(C13<6,"Super Unlimited",IF(B14>7.75,"Super B","SuperA")) shouldnt my car be SUPER B as it is >7.75 ? i really dont know excel spread sheets that well so keep that in mind.

Yes.

Looks like there is a typo in the formula, the wrong cell name is used. Edit the B14 to be C13.

[nhsilversti]

doing the spreadsheet for super class im not really sure what to think. 440whp 3520 weight (last time car was weighed), dot tires, 255mm, awd, and 4 or more doors shows my car should be SUPER A with corrected power to weight of 9. looking at the formula on the spread sheet =IF(C13<6,"Super Unlimited",IF(B14>7.75,"Super B","SuperA")) shouldnt my car be SUPER B as it is >7.75 ? i really dont know excel spread sheets that well so keep that in mind.

Yes.

Looks like there is a typo in the formula, the wrong cell name is used. Edit the B14 to be C13.

thanks, that did it. now showing SUPER B

playing with weight numbers and same hp it looks like cant go below 2975# or i will end up in super A. where of where to remove weight. more importantly, where of where to find a producing money tree so i can get back out there.