i just got a new track car

[horizenjob]

( FORMULA FORD's ) minimum weight 1000 LBS over the years they went from 115 HP motors to 140 HP motors . no aerodynamics allowed .

They also have 5.5" inch rims, so while it uses slicks they are the smallest available.

Mine puts out 106. A few put out 10 HP more, very few 15. I don't think people are getting 140 on an honest dyno... They have stock cams, valves, compression etc.

[breakaway500]

I guess it is an astounding feat that Ariel makes a street legal sports car car that actually has the performance potential of..a formula car!
Simply amazing.What other car company can boast that?!! (for a price even close to $50k,the brand new price for an Atom3)

The USA builder of the Ariel Atom TMI's Vice President (Mark Swain) called me last week and would like to bring a new Atom3 (supercharged Honda powered) to Monticello to run with us in May.

[DanDarcy]

If you buy a new car and want to run a certain class, check the rules before you buy . Don't try to change the rules to match your new car.

Marcus, the Formula Ford has been classed as FP for over 10 years.

Mark; if the gentleman fro Ariel brings his car, the SP rules would appear to apply.

Kit cars and replicars are allowed in SP if they meet the rules otherwise specified. A Kit Car is typically a low production volume or
one-off tube frame car with fiberglass, carbon fiber or aluminum body. This car may either duplicate a classic sports car of the past
(either faithfully or with performance improvements), or be a new design. A Kit Car must be street legal. A Kit Car is considered
street legal if it otherwise meets the requirements of this rule book and has a current registration and inspection sticker or meets the
New Hampshire Statutes on Equipment of Vehicles (http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/htm ... XI-266.htm)
including the Street Rod statutes.

[breakaway500]

The new Atom3 Honda powered/supercharged, makes a real 300hp,not like my measley 230hp. It will have fenders and even a full windshield. It should be interesting as to which is faster on track,a 2 or 3. Mark Swain grew up 10 miles from Mosport and is quite the driver so I have been told.
There may also be another private owned Atom3 (Honda/supercharged) showing up as well and a car called the Nemesis,which is a single seat exo skelletal body-less motorcycle (GSXR1000)powered kit car. Think Atom-lite.
If they all show up,it should be mighty interesting out on track!
I shall start praying for..

[962porsche]

RULES WERE MENT TO BE CHANGE ! or nate would not have a job with comscc !!!!! no rule is set in stone . times change and some cars get faster over time (like the FORMULA FORDS ). nates car would be classed in CSR with the scca . it has alittle aerodynamic help and more can be added . does this mien potential in making a car faster ? he could also build the hell out of his 1.8 liter motor and get up to 165 HP should that also be added into the equation ? i think not ! if he did do these things then yes then it would be time for a class change . as you all know i don't like the rules for the FP class it just lumped to many cars of unequal performance into one class . but for now the rules are the rules . this fall when its time for the new rules to get voted on come up with a good change in the rules and submit them .

[nateh]

David, why do you say our car would be in CSR in SCCA? I understood it would be in SPU.

[962porsche]

nate it has to do with the potential . you could add allot of down force . other that that your car is on the over weight side for the CSR class but so are other cars in that class . can you run in SPO yes its and open class . you would be running with cars like shine' racing VW (google it) in CSR and SPO you would be a back marker the way it is now . but its all about potential ! your doing all you want to do to the car and thats fine .so it should be in PC-PB by the rules . your car just like the formula ford would have a little chance to place in FP if you were running with full down forced and big HP cars . my car as it sits now has no under car aerodynamics . if i want to be as fast as i can be with that type of car i will have to add it . so i am !

[jlwhorf]

Nate, I quickly looked through the sports racer of the GCR and did not see any thing that obviously puts you out of CSR with a na engine. The only caviate I saw was that enterprise cars (i.e. SRF) are allowed but must meet enterprise specs. I don't know what homologation your car has, especially being a school car, so only take this at face value.

[timmmy]

as you all know i don't like the rules for the FP class it just lumped to many cars of unequal performance into one class . but for now the rules are the rules . this fall when its time for the new rules to get voted on come up with a good change in the rules and submit them .

I agree, hence my comment about maybe adding sub classes to FP? FP is a cool place to play but the range of car potentials means it really is a check book class.

[nateh]

David, I said SPU, not SPO. It's not a national class, it's a regional option class. We hope to run in endurance races.

Adding downforce to the car would just slow it down - not enough power. (Underbody aero improvements might help, I admit.) Adding power would make the brakes, hubs, etc start to fail. They were selected, from the Renault Alliance and Encore to be cheap and robust with 100 HP. Even so, wheel bearings are a weak point. They are replaced often, and still fail unexpectedly in SRF competition. To go to more HP would require changing so much stuff that a lot of money would be required. That would be a poor investment, as you can get a much faster car (500 lbs lighter, to begin with) for less money than such a highly modified SRF would entail. This reasoning is key to why we chose to avoid a turbo version of the VW engine. The knowledge that we could run in PC and SPU were critical to that decision also.

Running CSR would definitely be bringing a knife to a gunfight. Might as well rip the roof off a stock Pinto and race that.

Jonathan, the issue of "Enterprise Cars" shouldn't arise in regional-level enduros. The car is not an SRF, any more than Will Martins' car, for example, is a Spec Miata. (Once was, isn't now. Irrelevant to current classing.) In 2008 I discussed the question with a couple of SCCA regional enduro organizers and there was no objection. We actually ran an EMRA race, and they put us in a class they thought was appropriate based on performance potential. We were slow for that class, but competitive in the enduro because of the conditions.

[offcamber09]

Sorry- especially to Nate- to chime in so late. You guys have been busy. First off, a Daiso, Radical, S2000, Stohr etc are formula cars with bodywork. The speed potential of theses cars, driven properly, will back that up. Which leads me to my next point: the fact that a potentially fast car is not driven fast doesn't mean it should be reclassified- it means you either sucked on that day, you consistenly suck, the car is not well prepped or the track would only "give" so much that day with that combo. Classification does not guarantee competitiveness.

[breakaway500]

"FP is a cool place to play but the range of car potentials means it really is a check book class."

Then my hat is off to Jonathan Whorf,the 2009 COM FORMULA PREPARED CLASS CHAMPION for winning the class with his $2k car...it may have even been less.Might be the LEAST expensive car in COM. I just HATE blanket statements about classes,especially when they are incorrect. Spending more money is NOT the key to winning. Jonathan is proof of what an individual with talent and guile can do when applied properly.


^^ Scott,well said! Cars do not drive themselves into the winners circle.

[horizenjob]

Marcus, the Formula Ford has been classed as FP for over 10 years.

I first ran with COM in 1973, and I believe the rule change was done because of my car and a particularly irate individual in the PA class. It didn't seem to matter that there were people who could beat me every time they came to the track. So I'm missing the point. What is it that's better about the last 10 years then the previous 30?

If you look at the track records that were posted on page 2 of this thread you can see the gap between a Club Ford and an Atlantic is greater then the total difference to the slowest car. We have 3 classes for the smaller difference. It is not an issue of choosing an uncompetitive car, or even an out-classed car - it is now out classed by more then any other car in COM which got bumped three classes.

Let's post some more lap records, I think the NHMS chicane-chicane is the only case were it looks that good. On any other course in the country it will be a bigger difference.

My opinion is that the rule change discouraged myself and other Club Fords from coming to our events. Also that that is a loss to our club in the sense that if we are about driving - the entry level formula cars are the cheapest and most "drivable" vehicles at our events.

My second and really major concern is that we are telling people to modify these cars. I don't think a major power boost is the greatest idea for these things. They were designed to a formula. It would be cheaper to double the power in this car then rebuild the motor. Since it looks like I may need to do this - maybe I shouldn't explain all the ways this can go wrong. These cars have nothing like the safety margins of the other cars at COM...

"Sure it will be fine, the motor used to bolt to the rollbar brace but now it's on this tube over here! Don't worry about that rear suspension it bolts to this other thing over here now!". It's one thing when you have a race car designer build these cars, it's another thing when every body completely changes them.

I don't object to having fun modifying these, I object to making every single person feel like they have to go out on a limb to drive a $3500 car that can get FTD...

[horizenjob]

I just HATE blanket statements about classes,especially when they are incorrect.

He is correct... It has to do with COM having made this class so unattractive that people have stopped coming. I have a picture of a whole row of formula cars lined up for a COM practice. If you don't want it to be a check book class you need to have a spread of times that is not larger then all other classes of a type put together.

[nateh]

Jonathan is proof of what an individual with talent and guile can do when applied properly.

This is quite true, and I also congratulate Jonathan on this. However, he used a strategy that only works in a class that is seriously under-subscribed. If we're happy with the P-Classes continuing to be under-subscribed, then we don't need to worry about this situation. Personally, I would prefer to see these classes grow.

The oft-quoted "Classification does not guarantee competitiveness" is also perfectly true, and its importance is demonstrated at every event. However, if over-used it can appear to be a cop-out. We (stewards and BOD) have a responsibility to find solutions that create the best competitive and fair opportunities we can within a limited class structure. (I.e., not so many classes that each one is nearly empty.)

I think what's behind a lot of concerns expressed here is a slippery-slope argument, whereby somebody someday might lever previous rulings to take a low-end car, put a whopper motor in it, and clobber the lower P-Classes. I can't deny the possibility of this, but there are reasons why it is unlikely. Both Marcus and I have given specific reasons in the cases we are familiar with, which boil down to the fact that such a mishmash car would be either unsafe and unreliable or foolishly expensive. If, in spite of good sense, people build and bring such cars, then the stewards and the tech inspectors will have to deal with it. I would also argue that no set of rules will keep some cowboy from doing this kind of thing. It has probably happened in the past.