Mazda Strikes Again!

[chaos4NH]

For all you guys looking for a fun road/track car, I don't think you can find as much fun as these 2 for the money.

http://www.mazdaoca.org/index.php?optio ... 8&Itemid=1

The 2008 MS3 comes in Pearl white - wow! does it look good!

What will Mazda do for a Mazdaspeed entry in 2009? As some of you know, rumor has it the 2.3l turbo will be stuffed in the Miata (MX5 as it is now designated). If that happens........the Grocery Getter may really become a grocery getter!

[CP]

Some owners have experienced issues with the ABS system at the track. Here is the result of one incident. There are a few threads on various forums about the issue. Mazda has yet to officially address it.[/url]

[cuda6666]

How is this an ABS problem if the brakes were locked as the car went off the track?

[Dave_G]

How is this an ABS problem if the brakes were locked as the car went off the track?

From the driver's comments on that YouTube page:

Because I was in the ABS so much, the inner pads wore twice as fast as the outer pads and I only eyeballed the outer pad. BUT, what happened then is that the ABS system sensed the difference in braking between the R and L, then went into "dump mode" because it sensed I was on ice or oil. "Dump mode" causes a dump of all brake pressure in order to regain traction on ice. It was the dump mode that made a stupid mistake into a potentially deadly one.

One more reason not to have ABS on the track.

[chaos4NH]

How is this an ABS problem if the brakes were locked as the car went off the track?

From the driver's comments on that YouTube page:

Because I was in the ABS so much, the inner pads wore twice as fast as the outer pads and I only eyeballed the outer pad. BUT, what happened then is that the ABS system sensed the difference in braking between the R and L, then went into "dump mode" because it sensed I was on ice or oil. "Dump mode" causes a dump of all brake pressure in order to regain traction on ice. It was the dump mode that made a stupid mistake into a potentially deadly one.

One more reason not to have ABS on the track.

I have been following that thread since it started. I think it is so much BS. I, and many others, think the guy just screwed up. My inside pads were down to the metal at Tremblant, hard braking for 4, 8 and 14 with no such ABS "takeover". In fact, in the many months since that the original OP started that thread, there have been no other occurances reported. As for the inside wear, yes, so you should check insides and be sure that the slides are properly lubed when pads are installed. I have had no such wear after switching to XP8 pads from Carbotech. Ask Bruce Allen who had my stock pads literally smoking (right Claire?) at the Glen, the damned car stops goooood!
That thread raged on for months, and I won't bore you guys with the whole story. The OPs description of "dump mode" and whether or not there is such a thing has been beat to death on that forum. Believe me, I have found the brakes on the MS3 to be nothing but excellent.

[chaos4NH]

I will add just one more comment regarding the driver who had the "brake issue" out in Washington state. When those front brakes got down to metal on metal, as the inside pads wore, there was the unmistakeable noise and feel of metal grinding on metal. That should have given him a little "clue".

[rajito]

Is ABS for car crashes the equivalent of wind gusts to motorcycle crashes?

Raj

[WillM]

Maybe it was Gravity Shear?

[rajito]

Unpossible! Gravity shear only happens just before Paddock Bend at Tremblant, and this incident was not at LCMT.

Raj

[WillM]

Unpossible! Gravity shear only happens just before Paddock Bend at Tremblant, and this incident was not at LCMT.

Raj

I think Jack Rosen would attest that this phenomenon also occurs at Mosport, especially in the T2 area.

[chaos4NH]

Unpossible! Gravity shear only happens just before Paddock Bend at Tremblant, and this incident was not at LCMT.

Raj

I think Jack Rosen would attest that this phenomenon also occurs at Mosport, especially in the T2 area.

And WillM also at T2, Mosport?

[brucesallen]

I have been following that thread since it started. I think it is so much BS. I, and many others, think the guy just screwed up. My inside pads were down to the metal at Tremblant, hard braking for 4, 8 and 14 with no such ABS "takeover". In fact, in the many months since that the original OP started that thread, there have been no other occurances reported. As for the inside wear, yes, so you should check insides and be sure that the slides are properly lubed when pads are installed. I have had no such wear after switching to XP8 pads from Carbotech. Ask Bruce Allen who had my stock pads literally smoking (right Claire?) at the Glen, the damned car stops goooood!
That thread raged on for months, and I won't bore you guys with the whole story. The OPs description of "dump mode" and whether or not there is such a thing has been beat to death on that forum. Believe me, I have found the brakes on the MS3 to be nothing but excellent.

ABS is bad because you cannot "in a spin, two feet in". I have seen the ill affects at COM many times including as an instructor in passenger seat. The affect is usually an arcing curve riht into the wall instead of a tight spin that keeps you on track.

"Dump mode" or a similar term in other brands has hit COMMERS too. Consider the Audi at Mosport a few years ago and the complete analysis and video of the Bosch ABS software that was on the COM site. When the car was coming into turn 5 the driver was able to exert more braking than normal due to uphill G forces and the software said "Ooooh, this can't be happening. Ice!" and removed 99% of braking. Car crashed into the wall after 5. Brad Pelleteir (now departed to Arizona), embedded software developer also did extensive analysis of how ABS software gets too smart for it's own britches. Pull the fuse.

By the way, Sam, I can get any car to smoke it's brakes the first time on track with street pads. Smoke=good. Street pads will be gunked with oil and junk. It is always good to hit them with 1,000 degrees to get better braking the first time out.

[DanB]

I've heard reports of too much rear brake bias in modern cars that rely on ABS. Pull fuse, spin in the braking zone.

Anybody else hear of this?

Personally, I prefer no interference between my foot and the brake calipers. Standard brakes are inherently very reliable. Introducing electronically controlled valving adds failure modes without really increasing safety IMO.

Unfortunately, not only ABS but "stability management" are about to be mandated by 2012 (isn't that the year the Mayan calender ends, on Dec 21?).

[chaos4NH]

Appreciate your input Bruce. I just think, in the thread in question, there is too much doubt that the worn inside pads resulted in that particular incident. Also, his claim the he was "in the ABS" so much, is rather a sign he may have been over braking for quite some time. I consider braking hard enough to activate the ABS a sign of over braking. And, I mean that in the context of engaging ABS time and time again, lap after lap.

This is a quote from the OP of that big crash:
They should know of the issue so they can decide if there is a problem as I suspect. At this point it is just my untested speculation. I hope they will want to investigate further, for their sake as well as unsuspecting owners.

So we don't not know for sure if the system caused the brake dump, only what he "suspects".

In case anyone is interested in reading the whole thread, here is the link:
http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=89745.0

[rajito]

Never had any issues with the STI's ABS. I think it really depends on how the manufacturer has it set up. I'm sure a Toyota Camry's ABS is programmed differently than a 911 Turbo's.

Raj