New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Questions, comments, and discussions concerning COMSCC rules.

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paultg
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by paultg » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:01 pm

WillM wrote:$ince the topic has drifted to money, and we're now looking at a rule $et (Touring) where current $$ cars would compete against $$, $T, and $P cars, then I believe $omeone need$ to take a clo$er look at the value of rain tire$.

I think Hoosier wets should move a car up one complete class, minimum, and regardless of tire width or other factors. Ten freakin' points. Seems only fair if we are building a rule set where stock daily drivers are running against guys with track-prepared cars that arrive on trailers or at least towing tire trailers behind them. Talk about having to spend money to be competitive! Not only do you need to buy the tires, but you need to buy a trailer and maybe a tow vehicle too! :shock: How many SS or even ST cars are driven to/from events with not means of carrying a set of tires, let alone a set of rain tires.
Yup, this is exactly my situation with not only a set of wets, but a set of SM6s that I probably can't practice and TT on get a full season out of. I'm lucky enough to have a super dooper nice guy with an enclosed trailer keep/store/and transport my one set of rim/tires to/from events.

I buy a decent set of street tires for the car as a backup/heavy rain tire.

But that is a limitation I put on myself, not being able to make every event as well, which sort of eases the "season results competitiveness". I still like the idea of the new touring class rules and will try to shake up the results as much as I can at the events I do attend. I really enjoy pushing myself in a somewhat less prepared car anyway, plus you always have an excuse. :-)
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by blindsidefive0 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:32 pm

Posting from vacation so I'll be short...

While there may be specific cases, on the whole I cannot imagine how the new Touring system is more expensive that current state rules. Yes, under the new system you may be 2, 5, or 9 points away from the theoretical top of a class. Let's use current state SSU rules, since that's been thrown around...what is more expensive, a Ferrari or X points worth of "go-fast" mods on a C5 z06? I would say the Ferrari is more expensive. My point, and I think Kevin's point, is that no one is "maxed out" in the current classes; the new classes just provide some transparency to that reality. The fact that guys can actually imagine what the limit of a class with the 2013 rules is shows that it's more within reach than today...

Also, for ST - after doing a quick exercise to help determine safety cutoffs, I found that you can do about 40 points worth of mods it today's current ST rules and still stay legal. Between the tires (10-12 points), weight (5 points), suspension (8 points), engine (5 points for NA, more for FI), etc...it adds up very quickly. However, in the 2013 proposal each class has only a 10 point spread, without modification cliffs (i.e. if I perform this, then I must perform 30 other mods to "max out" my car); how does this not save money?
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Bobc » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:49 am

blindsidefive0 wrote:Posting from vacation so I'll be short...

While there may be specific cases, on the whole I cannot imagine how the new Touring system is more expensive that current state rules. Yes, under the new system you may be 2, 5, or 9 points away from the theoretical top of a class. Let's use current state SSU rules, since that's been thrown around...what is more expensive, a Ferrari or X points worth of "go-fast" mods on a C5 z06? I would say the Ferrari is more expensive. My point, and I think Kevin's point, is that no one is "maxed out" in the current classes; the new classes just provide some transparency to that reality. The fact that guys can actually imagine what the limit of a class with the 2013 rules is shows that it's more within reach than today...

Also, for ST - after doing a quick exercise to help determine safety cutoffs, I found that you can do about 40 points worth of mods it today's current ST rules and still stay legal. Between the tires (10-12 points), weight (5 points), suspension (8 points), engine (5 points for NA, more for FI), etc...it adds up very quickly. However, in the 2013 proposal each class has only a 10 point spread, without modification cliffs (i.e. if I perform this, then I must perform 30 other mods to "max out" my car); how does this not save money?
Nick, Know you guys put a ton of work into this project and have really tried to make work correctly and I thank you guys for your efforts. COM has been a really fun place for Laura and I to play so I really don't want to "rock the boat" and that was why I stayed out of it, untill we were mentioned. (you and I have had off line conversations so you know what I was thinking)
Then I was asked a question that I sill don't know the answer to but the more I think about it the more, I don't think I like the idea of running heavy stock cars with light modified cars in the same class because like I said to Brendan it is like Apples and Oranges yes we bought fast stock cars to run in a stock class.. so if we need to run with modded cars we will mod them as we can afford to till we are at the top of the range. But I would rather leave them alone.
Yes I know if a guy or girl shows up in a C6 on r6's or a Ferrari we are going to get drilled but what is the real likelyhood of that?
One issue I have is this will force the heavy cars to have fresh rubber at every event and the light car might not have to and be still able to run at the front....I know you have told me that we can save money on lesser tires but really once you have driven our cars on Hoosiers you don't want to go back it take a bunch of fun out of it and I don't want to be the guinea pig and risk spending 1100 -1500 on a guess that they might or might not be ok.
As i had stated before I have lived thru a major change of rules in a racing series (granted it was drag racing something that i have done heavily since I was 16) that I ran with for years and loved then a well intentioned group of people trying to fix a perceived wrong inadvertently changed the whole dynamic that made the series fun and that eventually killed the series. Not that this is what is see happening here, just that it is something I never want to see repeat of.
Again I was asked my opinion and this is what im thinking
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Brendan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:54 am

Bob - I'm pretty sure I agree with your apples and oranges sentiment. I personally would rather be competing with like cars, but at the same time, who knows how the competition will shake out - maybe it'll work great. (Then again, I could also see one of our cars being disadvantaged against the other depending on the track) Right now I'm right around 95 points, so I have the choice of T100, T110 (Or whatever the new upper touring class is) or Super C / PC. Any one of these options is a significant change in who I'll be running against, and some could be a bunch of extra $$ to prepare to the limit of the class - who knows . But to be honest at this point, I'll probably look at next year as a "Seat Time" year without any major changes anyways - too many bugs to work out and I want to see how the rules work before committing.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Chrispy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:19 am

Brendan, given the level of prep on your car I think you would be far best off competing in the Super classes, Super C as a guess. The way the rules are proposed there is little incentive for race cars to run in the touring classes since the points accumulation forces them out of their competitive territory. There were some suggestions made on how to correct for this, but the general feeling from most people was that they didn't feel stock, lightly modded cars should be competing against race cars. In other words, a highly prepped race car in the top touring classes would most of the time be smoked by Bob and Laura's almost stock Corvettes.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Brendan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:55 am

Chris - That depends. Looking quickly at lap times, my car has the potential to be faster, as fast, or slower depending on track and driver... Of course the driver is a big variable, but It's closer than what you'd expect on the surface, which I guess is a good thing even though we're talking about vastly different cars. But I agree that it still probably wouldn't be very much fun.

Looking at the new version of the classification sheet (with every car bumped down one) it now looks like I could barely squeeze into T80 by carrying some extra weight and running RA-1s, Run T90 as is, or T100 / Super C / PC with room to mod the car...

Not sure which route I'd go yet, but am probably leaning T80 or Super-C / PC
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by boltonite » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:22 pm

Chrispy wrote:the general feeling from most people was that they didn't feel stock, lightly modded cars should be competing against race cars.
Huh? It seems the new rules virtually guarantee stock or lightly modded cars will be competing against race-prepped cars, isn't that the point?

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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Chrispy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:17 pm

boltonite wrote: Huh? It seems the new rules virtually guarantee stock or lightly modded cars will be competing against race-prepped cars, isn't that the point?
I believe that was their original intent - to a point. I guess it depends on your definition of "race-prepped". For example is an ST car a race car? For some perhaps, but not really in the larger picture of race cars. For full on race car I mean the top prepped cars of SP and above, i.e. the stuff that is never going to drive on the street.

The analysis I made was that once you've accumulated more than about 35-40 modification points, then you are starting to get into race car territory, and probably more competitive in Super than Touring. I don't think there really needs to be a rule or cut off, it would appear that it is somewhat self policing by the fact that you start to get out classed by the less modified more powerful cars.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Chrispy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:32 pm

BTW in the latest revision if you have 51 or more modification points then you are required to have all the super class safety equipment, i.e. you are a race car.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by McMahonRacing » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:33 pm

Think about it .... I bet the # of liscensed, insured & street driven cars in SPA / PA etc. far out number those that are not and by a pretty big margin .....

" For full on race car I mean the top prepped cars of SP and above, i.e. the stuff that is never going to drive on the street. "

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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Chrispy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:52 pm

McMahonRacing wrote:Think about it .... I bet the # of liscensed, insured & street driven cars in SPA / PA etc. far out number those that are not and by a pretty big margin .....
I'm talking about level of car prep, not the numbers currently in the class. The number of gutted and caged cars in PA, PB and PC that are driven on the street is the extreme minority. SP is definitely a split, a good number of the cars are street driven but those cars aren't that highly modified, once you start looking like Gordon's or Will's car then you probably aren't driving on the street recreationally any more (although you would certainly turn some heads!). The end result is that the drivers are going to be attracted to either touring or super, in part based on the level of modification they currently have as well as well as their desires for the type of cars they want to compete with.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by dradernh » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:05 pm

Chrispy wrote:BTW in the latest revision if you have 51 or more modification points then you are required to have all the super class safety equipment, i.e. you are a race car.
Is this the iteration you referred to a couple of days ago as almost finished, Chris? Where will it be made available once it's done?
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by Brendan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:30 pm

dradernh wrote:
Chrispy wrote:BTW in the latest revision if you have 51 or more modification points then you are required to have all the super class safety equipment, i.e. you are a race car.
Is this the iteration you referred to a couple of days ago as almost finished, Chris? Where will it be made available once it's done?
Pretty sure the latest version is what is posted on the Registration site. I downloaded updated files today.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by dradernh » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:36 pm

Brendan wrote:Pretty sure the latest version is what is posted on the Registration site. I downloaded updated files today.
Cool. Thanks, Brendan.
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Re: New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

Post by McMahonRacing » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:26 pm

Sorry ... I guess Dad, Myself and a few others ( several of the fastest SPA cars ) are just in the miniority again ..... yes, we do turn heads & totally worth it, no trailer queens here .... shouldn't have even mentiuoned it I guess, my bad.

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