Non-DOT Slicks

[savage217]

If your competition tires are heated and at full grip on lap 2, or 3, how is that "better" for the competition? It only takes one fast lap.

Another angle: Who determines what "scrubs" are? Is it competition tires with 2 laps? Or 50 laps? Will they come with certification as to the number of laps and/or heat cycles? Too much room for error here.

At least DOT tires can be policed.

Why don't we take the DOT tire rule out completely then? I really could care less if someone is running a true racing slick (I really doubt it will happen). If it allows the majority of us to buy cheap used race scrubs, I am willing to take that risk of being at a disadvantage and I am sure others will feels the same way.

Yep, you are heading down that slippery slope. Then it becomes a tire war and those $2000 race tires will decide the winner rather than a level playing field for those of us only able to spend $800 for new DOT tires.

I disagree. Some of the class rules are so lopsided to begin with (which is for another discussion). There are major disadvantage for some cars and major advantages for others. For example, having a caged/gutted 400+AWHP STI/Evo versus a Naturally aspirated 6 cylinder BMW street car is hardly a level playing field. It is is still a heck of a lot of fun regardless of whether or not who wins. If the only way for the scrub rule to be allowed is to throw out the DOT tire rule, I am all for it because at the end of the day it comes down to everyone's budget in reality. There is no money involved for first place. With this rule change it could increase the potential for more members to attend more events because of that extra money in their pockets.

[brucesallen]

Name someone that would spend $2000 an event on tires to exploit this proposed rule change. If you can't think of one person, then this hypothetical argument based on an extremely unlikely possibility shouldn't prevent me and others from running $100 scrubs in a time trial.

People with money. We have such people. Even more in SCCA with $400k rigs to win trophies that are worth 1/4 what we pay for COM trophies.

racer to mechanic "how fast can you make my car go?" Mechanic to racer "how much money you got?" Only a spec car can avoid most of that money effect.

[naschmitz]

Name someone that would spend $2000 an event on tires to exploit this proposed rule change. If you can't think of one person, then this hypothetical argument based on an extremely unlikely possibility shouldn't prevent me and others from running $100 scrubs in a time trial.

People with money. We have such people. Even more in SCCA with $400k rigs to win trophies that are worth 1/4 what we pay for COM trophies.

racer to mechanic "how fast can you make my car go?" Mechanic to racer "how much money you got?" Only a spec car can avoid most of that money effect.

If your reasoning is correct, that means we already have members that run brand new sticker Hoosier A6s at every event because they certainly can under the current rules and that would be the fastest thing to do if money was no object. Or you would see these $2000 slicks in the Prepared classes where they are already legal. Buy you don't. Why not?

[DanDarcy]

The SS, ST, and SP classes are for cars that are street legal and are required to have street legal tires. If you do a time trial in any of those classes, your car should have DOT tires. If you wish to practice on race tire, so be it,but run DOTs for time trials or get a rule change.

Bert, when I use the Mustang, I always carry two sets of R6s, one new and one used less than 12 heat cycles. They do not cost $2,000-, only $1,200- a set. I use a set every 2-3 events, so in-order to lower my tire budget from $400-$600 event, I went to a car with smaller, cheaper, and longer lasting tires. The point is there are some who are willing to spend $ on tires. If we change the rule, there would be some one willing to spend $2,000 for race slicks.

[962porsche]

ok i have been staying out of this one for awhile . i think it being a dot tire class is the way it should be . no if ands or buts about it . no matter if a slick is slower or faster cheapper or cost more . its a dot class and should be . if your car is to slow get a faster one . if tires cost to much then O-WELL thats racing it may not be apart of racing you like . but thats racing . like dan stated you could get a lighter car so tires last longer . or like bruce stated go spec racing . no one is telling you to run your car in that class ! thats your chose . why should comscc start changing rules to save you money ? do we have to start policeing tire costs now and try to still make it fair for every one . hell no !!!!

[jeffw]

racer to mechanic "how fast can you make my car go?" Mechanic to racer "how much money you got?" Only a spec car can avoid most of that money effect.

I dunno. Spec Miata seems to be evidence to the contrary. Do you buy the $2,000 crate motor, or the $7,000 pro motor? Plain old gas or $10/gallon+ magic racing fuel?

[naschmitz]

Bert, when I use the Mustang, I always carry two sets of R6s, one new and one used less than 12 heat cycles. They do not cost $2,000-, only $1,200- a set. I use a set every 2-3 events, so in-order to lower my tire budget from $400-$600 event, I went to a car with smaller, cheaper, and longer lasting tires. The point is there are some who are willing to spend $ on tires. If we change the rule, there would be some one willing to spend $2,000 for race slicks.

Hi Dan,

The purpose of starting this thread was that I could avoid paying $1200 a set and pay $400 instead and rotate through scrubs like you suggest. We already have classes where $2000 slicks are legal and no one is abusing them so I thought this would be a much simpler, logical discussion than it has become.

Bert

[chaos4NH]

Bert, when I use the Mustang, I always carry two sets of R6s, one new and one used less than 12 heat cycles. They do not cost $2,000-, only $1,200- a set. I use a set every 2-3 events, so in-order to lower my tire budget from $400-$600 event, I went to a car with smaller, cheaper, and longer lasting tires. The point is there are some who are willing to spend $ on tires. If we change the rule, there would be some one willing to spend $2,000 for race slicks.

Hi Dan,

The purpose of starting this thread was that I could avoid paying $1200 a set and pay $400 instead and rotate through scrubs like you suggest. We already have classes where $2000 slicks are legal and no one is abusing them so I thought this would be a much simpler, logical discussion than it has become.

Bert

Actually Bert, it is simple and logical. As Dan stated, the class is STREET Prepared and street tires are required. Yes?

[jlwhorf]

The purpose of starting this thread was that I could avoid paying $1200 a set and pay $400 instead and rotate through scrubs like you suggest. We already have classes where $2000 slicks are legal and no one is abusing them so I thought this would be a much simpler, logical discussion than it has become.

Bert

If you have the required safety equipment already, you could run you car in P and no one could complain.

[naschmitz]

Actually Bert, it is simple and logical. As Dan stated, the class is STREET Prepared and street tires are required. Yes?

Sam, I'd buy into that 100% if there weren't caged cars and other cars without license plates in Street Prepared. The fact is there are non-street legal cars in Street Prepared and we ALL run non-street legal "Not for Highway Use / Competition Use Only" DOT-approved tires. We seem to have already diluted the meaning of STREET in the SP classes to the point it is an over-simplification to say these are street legal cars running street tires.

No slicks for SP. I get it and I yield.

[naschmitz]

If you have the required safety equipment already, you could run you car in P and no one could complain.

To make it compliant to the PA safety rules would cost a lot and take away it's utility as a street car. Other than that I would not mind running in PA.

[savage217]

As Bert mentioned cars in SP are not actually street legal cars, they do not have to pass state inspection. Therefore some, if not most, are not street legal. So with that being said, why not allow competition tires?

[962porsche]

the spirt of the rule is for street cars on street tires . i think sam was the one who stated before about what would you call a scuff tire . what would you call a scuff tire ? by new slicks do 2 laps in warm up then there scuffs for the TT . get them nice and hot with some tire warmers . next thing you now to keep it far you have to have a rule stating no tire warmers . its just going to be to hard to police ! as for a cage i have built a shit load of them on most cars even when you do a total gut on a car you can save little to no weight and with most cars it adds weight . the plus would be a more ridged chassis but with some cars that are already pretty ridged there is no big gain there . if the car was a tube car that would be an other matter . but a tube chassis car does not run in SP classes .

[savage217]

the spirt of the rule is for street cars on street tires . i think sam was the one who stated before about what would you call a scuff tire . what would you call a scuff tire ? by new slicks do 2 laps in warm up then there scuffs for the TT . get them nice and hot with some tire warmers . next thing you now to keep it far you have to have a rule stating no tire warmers . its just going to be to hard to police ! .

That's why we should throw the DOT rule out all together.

[962porsche]

no thats why you keep it as a dot rule . if you do away with the dot tire rule it will end up costing car owners more money buying the fastest up to date tire . a set of new slicks cost more than a new set of dot tires . so with people now going out and getting a new set of slicks it will cost less in what way ????? a full hoosier slick for my diasio cost twice the money than the R6 i buy for the porsche in the same size . so why would you want to throw out the dot rule ?????