Rules question regarding sunroofs

[mossaidis]

Is there any mention of sunroofs in the rules? I can't find any. What's acceptable in terms of removable of sunroofs for safety purposes vs seemingly weight reduction regardless of class? Can I remove my sunroof & fill it in with sheet metal, etc and still be legal in ANY class for that matter?

PS. ARCA is more fun than watching NASCAR. how sad.. you know what's more sad? A: having to stay up until 3am to watch any kind of decent SCCA racing on SPEED channel (NO MORE PIMP MY RIDE OR PINKS PLEASE) When is NASA racing channel coming out? I would like to watch real amatuer road racing (you know left AND right turns...)

[Mark Swinehart]

In Street Touring (ST) you are not allowed to remove your sunroof and replace it with metal or plastic.

The exception to this might be if you could convince the Stewards that you had to remove the sunroof to install a cage.

[offcamber09]

In Street Touring (ST) you are not allowed to remove your sunroof and replace it with metal or plastic.

The exception to this might be if you could convince the Stewards that you had to remove the sunroof to install a cage or roll bar.

Wasn't the car in question available from the dealer without a sunroof? Undoubtedly- yes. Tin it in, replace the headliner and call it a day.
My last Mustang had the tin for the sunroof taken from a Volvo wagon. Come to think of it- was it a Volstang or a Mulvo? I digress- as usual.

[Mark Swinehart]

The sunroof was an option on my car and I was still told by the Chief Steward that I could not remove it under the current rules.

[DanDarcy]

Mark-- I think the removable of the sunroof is a safety issue. The solid roof is much safer than the GLASS roof that most cars have now. And hasn't the club always sided on the side of safety In a car with a steel sunroof, I would still want to remove it and go with a solid weld in panel instead --- for safety sake. When the roof panel falls out in a roll and your hand gets crushed , you'll wish you removed it

[Mark Swinehart]

Dan –

Your argument is similar to the logic I used when attempting to justify the removal of the sunroof of the car I’m building.

According to the Chief Steward the Street Touring rules do not allow the removal and replacement. Of course I was going to install a full headliner as specified in the Street Touring rules.

[mossaidis]

Yes, the car model "line" in question had a no sunroof option: 92-95 DX, CX, VX models had the option, though the Si only came with a sunroof. Regardless though...safety, right! I am putting in a full cage this winter and so perhaps I'll wait to remove the sunroof just in case I break any records at NHIS on 10/21... yeah, right! LOL!!!

Seriously though, is there a clarity issue in the rules relating to the topic? I think so.

[JayBay]

The following is from page 8 of the COM rulebook...

5. In all classes, interior panels may be modified or removed in order to accommodate the installation of full roll cages.
This includes the modification or removal of door panels, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll
cage door bars, even in classes that require such components Cars determined by the Stewards to have removed
interior panels beyond the spirit of this rule will be bumped up one class. For guidelines of material selection and
construction practices, consult the Sports Car Club Of America (SCCA) General Competition Rules. Cars with roll
cages that are constructed to SCCA GCR or other recognized sanctioning bodies’ specifications are not bound by the
material selection criteria mentioned above.

When I built the new Nissan I used the first line of the above pragraph to justify the removal of the sunroof and headliner in order to allow the custom welded-in roll bar (yes it's a roll bar, not a full cage) to sit as high up against the roof of the car as possible. I'm 6'2", and I needed every inch to get the rollbar above and away from my head in my prefered seating position. I considered this to be a safety issue for me, and I'm comfortable with my (perhaps somewhat loose) interpretation of the rules to allow me to do this and remain in ST4.

If anyone disagrees, feel free to protest me

[mossaidis]

Interpertion is half the rules though is it really a "window"*? And yeah, you don't a full roll cage. Not trying to protest anyone OR YOU for that matter, just trying justify getting more clarity around the topic of glass (really any) sunroofs and their acceptable removal for safety reasons with or without a roll cage - on the basis of Dan's arguement.

I know as well as the rest of you, now is not the time for rules changes, that's for Nov/Dec.

Any opinions to the contrary, that is, not being able to remove sunroofs for strictly safety reasons?

* - Being Greek, I am required by "law" to do this... etmology. By the purest sense of the word, a sunroof is a window.

From wikipedia.org:

Etymology - The word Window originates from the Old Norse vindauga, from vindr "wind" and auga "eye." "Vindauga" is still used in Icelandic, as well as some Norwegian dialects to mean exactly the same thing: window. It is first recorded in the early 13th century, and originally referred to an unglazed hole in a roof. Window replaced the Old English eagþyrl, which literally means "eye-hole," and eagduru, "eye-door". Most Germanic languages however adopted the Latin word fenestra to describe a window with glass, such as Swedish fönster, or German Fenster. Notable exceptions to this, apart from English, are Danish and Norwegian, with the English word window closely resembling the words vindue and vindu respectively. This is probably due to the Scandinavian influence on the English language by means of loanwords during the Viking Age. In English the word fenester was used as a parallel until the mid-1700s and fenestration is still used to describe the arrangement of windows within a facade.

Definition - A window is an opening in a wall that lets light and possibly air into the room and allows occupants to see out.

[JayBay]

I'd say you should follow the logic I used, and just pull the damn thing out and plug it. The truth is, you really can't fabricate a proper roll cage (or roll bar) with it in there. You want the cage to extend all the way to the roof line, especially if you plan on eventually racing the car in SCCA. You're making the car safer, and the few pounds your going to save by pulling the sunroof out are more than offset by the 30-50 feet of steel tubing you'll be adding to the car. I doubt any competitors will give you a hard time about it (I promise not to protest you, if you don't protest me!), but I can see it preventing you from earning a class record if the chief steward wants to be picky. Either way I wouldn't half-ass the cage work to comply with the ST4 rules.

[rajito]

I'm gonna protest you BOTH at October NHIS. Ha!

Raj

[chaos4NH]

I think the whole thread is bull crap. Just as moving a car out of SS for rear seat cushion removal to accomodate belts. Neither contribute to any performance increase. What frosts me are the prohibited, hidden performance "tricks" being used. For instance, gadgets and/or "tunes" which allow boost past factory specs, and such stuff, or cam shaft changes, "test pipes replacing cats", over sized intercoolers. You know, the kind of stuff no one can protest cause they can't be an expert on all makes of cars.
But, I accept it all, cause it has always been that way and the dishonest will end up doubting themselves when they do get beaten by a "legal" car.
Damn! Where to hide that transfer case so I can go AWD!

[HerbD]

Yes, the car model "line" in question had a no sunroof option: 92-95 DX, CX, VX models had the option, though the Si only came with a sunroof.

This is exactly the point. In SS and ST, if the item in question was an
option for the exact model of the car your are running, then you could
do the full option to replace it.

Case in point was the Miata manual steering rack. You can't just
remove the pump, you have to replace the rack with the manual
unit.

Likewise, if the car in question was available without a sunroof,
then you could remove the roof unit, weld in some sheet metal,
install the non-sunroof headliner and any lights or overhead
consoles that would have otherwise been stock, and that should
be legal as well. But it has to be available as stock on the
particular model in question.

Seriously though, is there a clarity issue in the
rules relating to the topic? I think so.

I would have to say no. The rules are exclusionary: if it doesn't
say you can do a thing, then you can't do a thing.

[mossaidis]

Interpertion is half the rules though is it really a "window"*? And yeah, you don't a full roll cage. Not trying to protest anyone OR YOU for that matter, just trying justify getting more clarity around the topic of glass (really any) sunroofs and their acceptable removal for safety reasons with or without a roll cage - on the basis of Dan's arguement.

I know as well as the rest of you, now is not the time for rules changes, that's for Nov/Dec.

Any opinions to the contrary, that is, not being able to remove sunroofs for strictly safety reasons?

Herb, I understand the "rules" as they're stated. I am suggesting something else with the quote above.

[offcamber09]

Likewise, if the car in question was available without a sunroof,
then you could remove the roof unit, weld in some sheet metal,
install the non-sunroof headliner and any lights or overhead
consoles that would have otherwise been stock, and that should
be legal as well. But it has to be available as stock on the
particular model in question.

Didn't someone say tin it, paint it and run it several days ago?