rule change proposal: carpet removal for cage installation

[SSNH]

i submitted this rule. please feel free to comment and vote.

update paragraph VI.F.5

from:
In all classes, interior panels may be modified or removed in order to accommodate the installation of full roll cages. This includes the modification or removal of door panels, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars, even in classes that require such components so long as the weight of the door bars is equal to or greater than the weight of the components removed. Cars determined by the Stewards to have removed interior panels beyond the spirit of this rule will be bumped up one class. For guidelines of material selection and construction practices, consult the Sports Car Club Of America (SCCA) General Competition Rules. Cars with roll cages that are constructed to SCCA GCR or other recognized sanctioning bodies' specifications are not bound by the material selection criteria mentioned above.

to:
In all classes, interior panels may be modified or removed in order to accommodate the installation of full roll cages. This includes the modification or removal of door panels, carpeting, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars, even in classes that require such components so long as the weight of the door bars is equal to or greater than the weight of the components removed. Cars determined by the Stewards to have removed interior panels beyond the spirit of this rule will be bumped up one class. For guidelines of material selection and construction practices, consult the Sports Car Club Of America (SCCA) General Competition Rules. Cars with roll cages that are constructed to SCCA GCR or other recognized sanctioning bodies' specifications are not bound by the material selection criteria in paragraph VI.F.4.

[WillM]

I agree and think it is a no-brainer. Of course carpet should be allowed to be trimmed to fit a rollbar or cage. I have a full cage and cut 2 small holes in the rear carpeting so it could fit. Even if I had to run the rear carpeting, which I don't in my class, anyone would be insane to protest that.

On the other hand, I would not support the complete removal of the carpet for the sake of a rollbar or rollcage. Totally unnecessary and against the principals of the classes which require interior and carpeting.

[Mick]

Will I agree... even though I really wish I could remove my carpet.

FWIW. The red interior in my car is very rare. I've been wanting to put a full cage in my car for quite a while but have actually been holding off because I don't want to cut the carpet. (Lame excuse I know)

[SSNH]

the intent of the rule change is to allow complete removal of the carpet pieces which would need to be cut to install the cage.

[nateh]

This includes the modification or removal of door panels, carpeting, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars

You might want to consider rewording it. At it reads now, you can only take the carpet off the door

Also, if you want people to be able to take entire pieces of carpet out without cutting them, you had better be explicit about that, too. Otherwise there could very well be be arguments about it.

- Nate

[SSNH]

This includes the modification or removal of door panels, carpeting, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars

You might want to consider rewording it. At it reads now, you can only take the carpet off the door

Also, if you want people to be able to take entire pieces of carpet out without cutting them, you had better be explicit about that, too. Otherwise there could very well be be arguments about it.

- Nate

good call....

i will resubmit it as...
This includes the modification or removal of door panels, carpeting, window glass and lift mechanism to accommodate roll cage door bars, even in classes that require such components so long as the weight of the door bars is equal to or greater than the weight of the components removed.
...with the word 'door' removed.

[Grippy]

If it is a street car it should have ALL the carpeting installed. It is not very hard to cut small holes to fit around a cage. Even I could do it.

What do you want to remove next? The back seat?

[SSNH]

If it is a street car it should have ALL the carpeting installed. It is not very hard to cut small holes to fit around a cage. Even I could do it.

What do you want to remove next? The back seat?

why ruin a good carpet?

perhaps we should stipulate that when someone takes out the windows in the doors they should have to smash the glass..

[WillM]

If the intent of the rule is to allow complete removal of the carpet in Showroom Stock and Street Touring, then I no longer support it. Sorry, my vote should be "no" instead of "yes".

I also have a rare red interior carpet. I removed the red carpet and bought a black factory one from a junk yard for $10. I then cut the black carpet to accomodate the rollcage. Could you guys do the same? That would hopefully encourage you to go with the full cage for safety and still not ruin the nice carpet. :thumbleft:

The 'race classes' (SP, P) already allow the complete removal of the carpeting and interior, so it seems that this rule will only effect Showroom Stock and Street Touring cars. I think SS & ST, the 'street' classes, should require the use of full interior. Who removes the carpeting and rear seats from their daily driver? I do not even agree with the current ST rule which allows the removal of the back seat and rear carpeting, but I am not about to submit a rule change to reverse that rule. I know fellow ST drivers and friends have already built their cars around this rule, and don't see the need to trouble those waters. On the other hand, I would not support expanding the removal of additional interior pieces in Stock and Street classes.

[SSNH]

in my case, there aren't too many e30 m3's at the junk yard. i am not proposing this change becuase of the performance advantage, it just seems like a waste to cut holes in a carpet which cost hundreds of dollars. lots of us supplement racing expenses by selling items taken out of the car, ie seats, intake, exhaust, steering wheel, etc.

actually, there are significantly lighter and less expensive e30 carpets available but they weren't available on my car. i don't think they would be allowed to be used either. it is sort of like using a lighter convertible top on a miata, yes it fits, but is it allowed?


people who have been around for while, back when st required a cage, was carpet removal allowed?

[SSNH]

Sorry, my vote should be "no" instead of "yes".

i bet a mod can do this for you...

[swinecanfly]

SSNH - The E30 318 carpet fits just fine and it doesn't have the padding that the M3 has. But is still harder and harder to find.

I believe the proposed carpeting rule makes sense because it is a logical extension of the seat removal rule. For example, in Mick's car he has the rear seats out - I have to run them for my class in autocross so I had to jam them back in. According to the COM rules I could leave them out even though they can be fit back in - by bending the fame and creasing the upper part of the seat.

Its the same way with the carpet - I can get it back in by creasing and folding it over, but really is that the right way to do it - I would rather be able to have the option of taking it out.

The opton of cutting the carpet for me is kind of silly because I could take it out as is and get some cash, a shockingly high amount of cash, for it if I sold it whole. Finding one in a junk yard? Not gonna happen.

Craig

[Stynger]

Cool....Does that mean my new 2 seat Spec Miata is now in ST?

[boltonite]

Even if I had to run the rear carpeting, which I don't in my class, anyone would be insane to protest that.

On the other hand, I would not support the complete removal of the carpet for the sake of a rollbar or rollcage. Totally unnecessary and against the principals of the classes which require interior and carpeting.

IMO, installing any rollcage is inherently at odds with the principles of the showroom stock classes, if showroom stock is intended for "daily driver" street vehicles. Once you install a roll cage, a fire system, racing seat(s) and harnesses, it may still pass inspection and be street legal but it will no longer be a "showroom" car, imo.

Fred F

[zip4zat]

I would support this rule change as it certainly makes for a easier and cleaner install of a bar/cage especially in a sedan. Its pretty unsightly to have a hacked up carpet in the back seat when the roll bar is not in the car. It would also make it easier to clean things up after removing the bar and getting things back to the way they were.

I havent checked recently but in ST aren't you already allowed to remove the rear carpeting anyways along with the seats? or is that SP, cant recall off the top of my head.

Honestly, how much weight are we really talking about...

Oh, and yes I remove my seats from my daily driver for the good part of teh year. Less weight from not being able to take passangers