Instead of ice-racing, I'm dorking out during winter months.

[mossaidis]

Instead of ice-racing, I'm thought it would be cheaper to dork out during winter months. There is so much in the way of computer game play these days, would it possible to purchase a good set of software and steering/peddle packages that be allow for some level of better driving in the spring? I would assume so. Instead of hours of countless internet searches, I would invite some discussion on the topic. Anyone have any experience here? Thanks

[Dave_G]

Oh my, another victim. You're talking about one of my favorite pasttimes, not just in the winter, but all year. It won't make you a great driver all by itself (just look at my driving for proof of that), but yes, it's a fun tool to help your driving, especially with things like learning the line, what happens if you try trail-braking that corner and mess up, etc. I highly recommend it. I learned the line (mostly) at most of the tracks I've visited before I even went there.

The first thing you need to know is that there is a great variety of software packages available, and some are great, while others are garbage. The good ones are properly classified as racing simulators, while the not-so-good ones are aimed at the arcade game market. Stay away from the arcade games, go for a proper simulator with good physics, and you'll be fine. Arcade games are easy to drive. Simulators are hard, just like the real thing.

Here are two web sites to check out for gory details:
http://www.rscnet.org/
http://www.autosimsport.net/

Everyone has their favorite programs. My favorites are rFactor and the venerable old standby Grand Prix Legends. GPL is ancient by game standards, but I still love it. I also has downloadable tracks for just about every track on the planet. rFactor has maintained the great physics of GPL, but with a modern interface and cars. Like GPL, it's also extremely difficult, which is what makes it so rewarding.

As far as wheels and pedals go, most people just start with something like the $100 Logitech set that you can get at Best Buy. It's plastic and the pedals are crap, but it will get you going. They just came out with a really nice $300 set that I'd love to have, with three pedals and a shifter, but then that's $300 that I can't spend on the real car.

I race in a weekly "league." This Thursday we're racing GPL at the old Spa, and rFactor somewhere else. It's especially nice to race against the same people every week. It's nice to know the people, and it eliminates the kiddie crash-fests that you get in some open online races.

I could go on and on. You can PM me if you really want me to.

[enjoythemusic]

While video games and fun and all... and do play them for about 5 hours a month... If the software has enough tracks it at least allows one to see the basic rhythm of a circuit.


WARNING: Semi-Adult Stuff Below
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Though in the end video games remind me of when i was about 14 years old, alone, and in my bedroom with a magazine. Sure it all worked out ok, but it really was almost nothing like the real thing. With video games you have no real interaction, there is no feeling of the G... forces, etc. While the better video games do have some fairly good simulation/stimulation, they are still not quite like actually 'driving it home' when it comes to motion dynamics, etc.

But like my bedroom, it at least gets you primed and see the curves and angles and some basics. REAL interaction with the REAL thing takes more finesse, more work, and other variables too numerous to mention.

Just my humble 2 Yen. Your milage, and relationships with cars/lovers may vary.

My apologies if the above is a bit... though that is how i see it and relate the two. i'd rather be doing the real thing, as often as possible, and on as many tracks as possible

[mossaidis]

i'd rather be doing the real thing, as often as possible, and on as many tracks as possible

Yes, yes, I see...

Winters are always tough... cold and lonely, it's good to have something you can count on for driving pleasure. Now, my Honda civic is an extension of me, but that part doesn't like to play in the snow like I do. I guess it could with the right configuration, training and one last visit to garage for a check up. Here are my relationship options:

1) AMEC ice racing...
http://www.icerace.com/

Adventurous and fun, this relationship, though promising when it comes to getting "good" in the snow, comes with potential baggage. Not that it's old, but it has friends that can be at odds with you or your style and everyone's doing it. Too many cars on the track at the same time. Everyone's fighting for the line and things can get too slippery to say the least. Not like time trailing, where heating your rubber and running the track by yourself is key to your game... No, not here. You could come out of the relationship brused, beaten and broke if you are not careful. But for about $1000 in tires, rims and shocks and a 4 hour trip to the Adirondacks every Sunday, we can get some action.

2) all out racing simulation...
http://www.hexatechracing.com/
http://www.force-dynamics.com/

There's alot of options out for that matter and it's expensive. I can see putting money here, feeling like it's not worth it and in return not getting what I was bargaining for. Motion, lights, sounds, vibrations... I might as well get and pay for the real thing. I was able to put the Honda together for less $9K. Who knows much these things would cost once you're done?

3) PC racing simulation...
TORCS http://www.berniw.org/trb/index.php (strange on-line racing community with c/c++ free-ware for programmers)
RSC http://www.rscnet.org (Race Sim Central, more organized free-ware racing sim community)
From Dave: THANKS! http://www.autosimsport.net/
TOCA 3 http://www.codemasters.com/tocaracedriver3/ (commercialized racing simulator)
Need for Speed.... please. it's totally JDM AND bling bling. Next
GTR 2
http://gtr-game.10tacle.com/index.php?id=246&L=1

TOCA 3 rated at 86:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/toca ... eview.html

And reviews for GTR2 rated at 90:
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/gtr2/review.html

Each is about $20-$26 And of course use THE game controller...
http://www.logitech.com/promotions/prom ... carbon_ign

TOCA 3 listed some the cars you can use in the game. GTR2 only had the really crazy racing configs. I guess there's also Gran Turismo 4, but I guess that's more a game as well.... and it's only available on PS2/3.

No creative langauge here, just looking for others to offer their advise or past experience.

[Dave_G]

Steven, I like your analogy, and in fact it's not far off. Of course the Real Thing is almost always better. The only problem with the Real Thing is that each weekend costs several hundred dollars, and I'm limited to a small handful of tracks a year. With sim racing I can race a hundred tracks a year, after dinner, in my socks, with a beverage by my side, at an insignificant cost. And since I'm actually racing, I can do things like set up another car for a pass, outbrake him into a corner, work on passing off-line, etc. I'll never do any of that in this lifetime. So yeah, given a choice, it's no contest, actual driving is 50 times better, but most of us only get to do it once in a rare while. Fortunately, it's not an either/or thing, and I can enjoy both.

Mickey, I had TOCA 2 when it came out (still have it somewhere around here), and while it has many great tracks and some cool cars, the physics are a bit "off," and IMHO it's not one of the best simulators. It's possible that they've improved things with TOCA 3, but what I've read hasn't led me to believe that's the case. Some of the cars were fun, some were just completely unrealistic. It's fun to drive the cars around, but IMHO it should take longer than an hour to learn how to drive a race car. By comparison, GPL took weeks to learn to drive competently, and literally months to where I could actually hold my own in a race. I'm still learning rFactor and always finish near the back, which is where a beginner should expect finish, I think.

I've never played with GTR2, but what I've read about it has sounded good.

[enjoythemusic]

Steven, I like your analogy, and in fact it's not far off. Of course the Real Thing is almost always better.

Thanks my friend. Was hesitant in posting something so, well, racey

The only problem with the Real Thing is that each weekend costs several hundred dollars, and I'm limited to a small handful of tracks a year. With sim racing I can race a hundred tracks a year, after dinner, in my socks, with a beverage by my side, at an insignificant cost.

Agreed. Love the Xbox and various race SIM games. i prefer SIM over arcade-like titles. As for costs, oh man i should bring my THICK book of expenses with me to a COM event. It'll make your eyes water! You KNOW you are in deep when is it about the same cost to buy an ENTIRE CAR than it is to engine prep and add a Supercharger. Of course you and 99 44/100th of COMSCC guys are smarter than i when it comes to car of choice, and so goes the reason for the insane costs.

And since I'm actually racing, I can do things like set up another car for a pass, outbrake him into a corner, work on passing off-line, etc. I'll never do any of that in this lifetime.

Well, in COMSCC i can understand that. There is good safety in not doing hard core wheel to wheel racing. For me, have realized that i enjoy the COMSCC safety, yet also want something more direct. With my Italian saloon car i prefer safe. With the FC it will be more wheel to wheel.

I've never played with GTR2, but what I've read about it has sounded good.

So far the best for Xbox has been TOCA2 imo. Wish i had a super computer to play some of those sims

[enjoythemusic]

1) AMEC ice racing... http://www.icerace.com/

Oh man, you NEVER should have posted that link. You see, well... already have Blazzak WS50 on the Italian car for the winter. Oh man.... MAN OH MAN.... hmmm.... (yes, you can read my mind as am seriously considering doing it).

LOVE car control clinics, LRP in the pouring rain, etc.

[mossaidis]

1) AMEC ice racing... http://www.icerace.com/

Oh man, you NEVER should have posted that link. You see, well... already have Blazzak WS50 on the Italian car for the winter. Oh man.... MAN OH MAN.... hmmm.... (yes, you can read my mind as am seriously considering doing it).

LOVE car control clinics, LRP in the pouring rain, etc.

I so drool... on the thought of ice racing. AMEC is an hour north of Albany, but now for me, 4 hours north of NYC. It still would tempting to do. Short Ram air, Stock springs, KYB GR-2 shocks, no sway bars, 14x6 OZ WRC rims and a set of Blizzaks. The dreams...

[cuda6666]

Interesting question: which is a better off-season pursuit in terms of skill development - ice racing or video games?

I think the answer depends on what you're training for. If the goal is to get better at what most of us do - flog modified street cars around the track - then I'd say ice racing is the choice.

However, if you're prepping for the next Formula 1 season, the opposite might be true. I say this because I've long felt that there is very little in common between driving production-based cars and driving something like a Formula 1 machine. I think Formula 1 is more of a cross between Go Cart racing and video games. Note the fact that most Formula 1 drivers come from carts - not from Subarus .

Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that Formula 1 drivers spend more off-season time in simulators than they do in cars.


Subaru Legacy GT #716
Plymouth Barracuda #67

"Track time is my enemy"

[rnoonan]

If you'd like to get your car out on the ice for some car control fun, but don't like the idea of banging your expensive Italian fenders with somebody's Escort, you might want to look into the "ice racing" series hosted by the Boston Chapter of the BMW Club. What they do is more like ice time trials or ice autocross - one car at a time on a course laid out on a frozen lake using cones, fastest lap wins. It's a ton of fun, safer than COMSCC time trials, dirt cheap, and teaches you how little you know about car control in slippery conditions. Here's a link: http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDescr ... acing.aspx It's not entirely clear whether they intend on running it this winter, and with the weather we've been having it's possible that Newfound Lake won't freeze to sufficient depth, but if they do host some events I highly recommend them!

[tmak26b]

With our current weather, we will never see ice again

[enjoythemusic]

If you'd like to get your car out on the ice for some car control fun, but don't like the idea of banging your expensive Italian fenders with somebody's Escort, you might want to look into the "ice racing" series hosted by the Boston Chapter of the BMW Club...

Interesting, when i mentioned ice racing to my wife last night she said her BWM dealer asked her to participate a few years ago. In the end think ice racing is in the cards

So the REAL question is: Have never setup my car for ice racing. i assume reduce alignment geometry as lower grip and less aggressive weight transfer... What is the ideal weight ratio f/r? What is max speed usually? Also, i assume i need to soften the springs and adjust the dampers. ANY and ALL setup hints are appreciated.

[rnoonan]

Steven, I'm sure you could improve performance to some degree through setup, but my ice racing abilities are so far below that that it never even entered my mind. (The best I've ever done is 2nd or 3rd.) In the Boston BMWCCA series, cars are classed by type of tires (snow, snow/ice, studded) and type of drivetrain (rwd, fwd, awd/4wd). Horsepower, weight, camber, etc. are irrelevant with regard to classing. My recommendation is that you try it first, then determine whether it's worth modifying your car for that purpose. If you really want to talk specifics with someone who might know what works, see if you can get in touch with Stan "Iceman" Jackson in the Boston BMWCCA. He's the guy who runs the series (determines whether the ice is ready, plows and lays out the course, etc.), and he and his family members usually finish at the top of their classes.

-= Rick =-

P.S. If you don't want to get your car all snowy and salty, the Jacksons usually have some vehicles that can be rented for a nominal fee, including an awd/4wd SUV or pickup truck.

[mossaidis]

So the REAL question is: Have never setup my car for ice racing. i assume reduce alignment geometry as lower grip and less aggressive weight transfer... What is the ideal weight ratio f/r? What is max speed usually? Also, i assume i need to soften the springs and adjust the dampers. ANY and ALL setup hints are appreciated.

Here is a link to AMEC forum on some setups.

http://com4.runboard.com/bamecmessageboard.f1.t27840

I think the basic setup is softest/stock springs, soft shocks, no sway bars (if rules allow) to get as much roll as possible. Tires would either blizzaks or menard, wider the better but not too wide. Chamber usually -2.5 in front and 1/16" toe out.

[enjoythemusic]

Steven, I'm sure you could improve performance to some degree through setup... see if you can get in touch with Stan "Iceman" Jackson in the Boston BMWCCA.

Roger that.

...I think the basic setup is softest/stock springs, soft shocks, no sway bars (if rules allow) to get as much roll as possible. Tires would either blizzaks or menard, wider the better but not too wide. Chamber usually -2.5 in front and 1/16" toe out.

Ahh ok. Changing the setup is relatively easy on my car as have done it many times and have appropriate tools. i figured a very soft setup was key, but HOW soft? Will ask the Iceman. Fortunately already have a set of Blizzak WS-50 on her for winter driving. As for salt, yeah that is bad but she has some rust proofing from factory and some added by me. Besides, its just a car and seems she is pretty much retired per se for road racing UNTIL i decide to tear apart the engine, tweak, then add a supercharger. But then COMSCC will not allow her as i don't want to add a full roll cage.

Am going to let a few close friends drive the basically unmodded tin top at NHIS open track days to at least keep the fluids spun. It will also allow me to use both cars during open track day for shagrins i guess.

MANY thanks guys, will contact the Iceman for basic setup notes.