Classes Revised for 2007

[DanDarcy]

WOW ! this discussion is getting too serious Stealth switches - hidden controllers, NO2 bottles . etc too hell with it all --- lets just ban all forced induction cars

[RyanC]

First of all I want to take a step back and be clear...I view this as a good healthy discussion and am NOT trying to be a jerk (I guess it just comes natural to me ).

My 'jerk-dar' isn't picking you up on the map, no worries

A "boost controller" can come in a number of different flavors including: remapped ecu; an ecu designed with multiple maps that the driver can toggle btw on the fly from inside the cockpit (popular with the VWs & Audis) by using such things as your wipers or high-beams etc. this is a very stealth option; you can use a separate electronic boost controller; one could rig a manual boost controller that bleeds boost pressure from the wastegate; you can disable the ecu controlled boost and utilize wastegate spring pressure. There are all sorts of options, most of which are very difficult to detect are easy to accomplish and provide terriffic benefits.

Jeff, good examples all, but they are all variations of the same theme. I was looking for a way to increase boost that wasn't done via some sort of 'boost controller'. IE ported widget, catless intake, etc.

Just suggesting that the primary reason for running race fuel is to prevent knock and that the likelihood of knock is increased by a number of factors but the main ones are ... a) increasing boost b) advancing timing c) leaning the mixture. You point-out below why you run race fuel and it is due to b) & c). This makes sense. You've stated from the beginning your ecu has been flashed and it makes sense that you've gained power from timing & fuel. I would certainly question others (if any) who run race fuel in SS classes. Particulary given that all else being equal race fuel robs power.

I ran race fuel last season, before the tune, as a safety precaution. Less chance for pre-ignition means most chances my motor will hold together under the heat and pressure seen on track. So I think there's a valid reason folks may and do run race gas, even on a stock car.

That's interesting. Your ECU doesn't have a fixed timing map? I can understand that if the ECU detects knock it backs-off timing from the map. As I read this I think it makes more sense...you advance the stock timing map considerably such that it is "optimized" for 100+ octane. Thus if/when on WOT while running 93 odds are it will exhibit knock and the ECU via the knock sensor will retard timing. Risky, but makes sense.

There's a baseline map, but the ECU has an advance multiplier that it will use to deal with varying fuel conditions. I agree on the riskiness, as who wants to have a car knock, but that's the gist of how it operates. Depending on how much advance you throw at it, you can get 10whp on a map like mine with race gas, or maybe 20whp on a more aggressive map.

I picked that stretch of track because it provides a good proof of power and provides manageable variables. By "manageable", of course, I mean that I'll wait for you to catch-up before putting the hammer down

LRP
Jeff Iafrati 1:02.508 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 1:01.762 Subaru Impreza WRX STi

NHIS 3
Jeff Iafrati 1:19.056 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 1:16.870 Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Mont Tremblant
Jeffrey Iafrati 01:55.111 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 01:53.612 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti


Jeff, apparently you won't have to wait too long!


Good discussion!

[RyanC]

WOW ! this discussion is getting too serious Stealth switches - hidden controllers, NO2 bottles . etc too hell with it all --- lets just ban all forced induction cars

Well, that would insure another ST1 season victory for you with only having to run 4 events...

[DanDarcy]

Hey Ryan I would have won with only 3 events--- when your good -- your good

[zip4zat]

Maybe after getting the opportunity to run up the esses at WG next year w/ the STi/EVO folks my opinion may change but until then I am not accusing anyone of cheating, just justifying those who question.

FWIW, I conisitently caught and passed a Z06 in the esses at WGI this year. HP has little to do with anything you are talking about (im down over 200hp than the Z06). Your speed up and through the back straight is mostly determined by your exit speed in T1

[rajito]

FWIW, I only used race gas once - at Mosport2 this year when I had 1/4 tank of gas and discovered at the time trial meeting that I was running in the first (or second) group. I didn't put enough and ended up cutting fuel in and out of the corners. The car was spunky enough on the straights with the race gas that I almost beat my time from Mosport1.

FWIW #2 - RyanC ran a 1:55.9 at Mont Tremblant in 2005. This is on RA1's, with soft ass springs, exhaust and no tuning at all. At Mosport1, he hopped in my car for time trials and almost beat my best time in 3 laps. Give him credit where it's due.

FWIW #3 - I end up running quicker times than many of the Mustangs, but I can not get past them on the front straights without a courtesy lift, even though I enter the straight at a quicker pace.

FWIW #4 - Take a look at Paddy - he blew a 1:02.6 in a bone stock STi at LRP with -1 degrees front camber. On 93 octane.

None of us is running higher boost. Insinuating that we are doing so just because of our times might irritate some of the others, but I consider it a compliment

Raj

[Seven]

Jeff, good examples all, but they are all variations of the same theme. I was looking for a way to increase boost that wasn't done via some sort of 'boost controller'. IE ported widget, catless intake, etc.

A catless intake will certainly help boost. Playing with wastegate spring pressure is a good way w/o involving your typical boost controller methods.

I ran race fuel last season, before the tune, as a safety precaution. Less chance for pre-ignition means most chances my motor will hold together under the heat and pressure seen on track. So I think there's a valid reason folks may and do run race gas, even on a stock car.

I guess it's cheap insurance but so is flood insurance if you live on top of a tall hill.

There's a baseline map, but the ECU has an advance multiplier that it will use to deal with varying fuel conditions.

This "advance multiplier" is part of the stock ECU parameters? Kinda funky, I've got to read-up on that...

LRP
Jeff Iafrati 1:02.508 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 1:01.762 Subaru Impreza WRX STi

NHIS 3
Jeff Iafrati 1:19.056 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 1:16.870 Subaru Impreza WRX STi

Mont Tremblant
Jeffrey Iafrati 01:55.111 Mazda RX7
Ryan Catucci 01:53.612 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti

What did you expect? Do you think I would just roll-out my tired old car after 5+ years of hibernation (partly in my garage and partly in my basement) and just jump back onto the scene and spank the new pups? I'm not THAT greedy...

Good discussion!

Agreed. I appreciate the opportunity to break-up my day!

[Seven]

Maybe after getting the opportunity to run up the esses at WG next year w/ the STi/EVO folks my opinion may change but until then I am not accusing anyone of cheating, just justifying those who question.

FWIW, I conisitently caught and passed a Z06 in the esses at WGI this year. HP has little to do with anything you are talking about (im down over 200hp than the Z06). Your speed up and through the back straight is mostly determined by your exit speed in T1

Agreed (partially). I hope to be able to carry just a little speed through T1. And, HP has more than a little to do with that stretch of WG realestate.

[rajito]

This "advance multiplier" is part of the stock ECU parameters? Kinda funky, I've got to read-up on that...

Here you go:
http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/ignition/

Talks about the advancing stuff for a 2002 UK Impreza, but the same concept should hold for the US version. It almost quotes what was posted earlier verbatim.

Like I said, RyanC is a good driver, and it is rather insecure to hint that he is quick only because of boost. He would have probably run in 1:00's at LRP if his ego boost controller hadn't overpowered him and caused him to spin at the left hander on his last lap

Raj

[DanDarcy]

Raj wrote

FWIW #3 - I end up running quicker times than many of the Mustangs, but I can not get past them on the front straights without a courtesy lift, even though I enter the straight at a quicker pace

Raj -- that must be the supercharged Mustangs not the old ones like mine. I catch up to most of the STis in the corners and they blow me away on the straights ! I really fly by you when your stuck in the mud

[Seven]

FWIW...The car was spunky enough on the straights with the race gas that I almost beat my time from Mosport1.

Race gas robs power, you're not suggesting otherwise, are you?

FWIW #2 - RyanC ran a 1:55.9 at Mont Tremblant in 2005. This is on RA1's, with soft ass springs, exhaust and no tuning at all. At Mosport1, he hopped in my car for time trials and almost beat my best time in 3 laps. Give him credit where it's due.

Bah! The whole point of this thread to discredit Ryan, why would I want to compliment him?

FWIW #4 - Take a look at Paddy - he blew a 1:02.6 in a bone stock STi at LRP with -1 degrees front camber. On 93 octane.

Back to the point... STi = SSU

None of us is running higher boost. Insinuating that we are doing so just because of our times might irritate some of the others, but I consider it a compliment

That's kinda putting yourself out there...don't you think? The ability to bump boost is so very easy I can't see how you can speak with 100% certainty about anyone else other than yourself. Raj, I am not accusing anyone of running elevated boost pressures, what I am suggesting is to definatively say noone is is being naive.

[RyanC]

Raj -- that must be the supercharged Mustangs not the old ones like mine. I catch up to most of the STis in the corners and they blow me away on the straights !

Dan, you really do have a sense of humour!

[rajito]

FWIW...The car was spunky enough on the straights with the race gas that I almost beat my time from Mosport1.

Race gas robs power, you're not suggesting otherwise, are you?

Please read the linked article from the other post.

Ignition Advance Map

The ignition advance map holds the timing values that may be added on top of the base map should the ECU decide to do so. The values are set so that base plus correction map values total the timing that should be used with the highest octane fuel that the engine will encounter. The ECU will never advance timing beyond the base plus correction lookups.

At low engine loads, the ignition advance map contains no advance - this is the flat 'valley' of the map. No matter what the quality of fuel, the ECU will never advance the timing above the value in the base map. This is because the engine will not produce further power by advancing the timing - MBT (minimum best timing) has been reached. Advancing the timing further increases the chance of knock and also increases vehicles emissions of hydrocarbons and NOx.

MBT is the lowest value of ignition advance that produces maximum power.

At high engine loads, the advance map contains much larger values. This shows that the timing possible varies greatly with the octane of fuel being used. Under boost, it may not be possible to reach MBT. In other words, the more timing advance that can be run, the higher the engine power output produced - MBT cannot be reached before the engine begins to knock before the plateau is reached. This is where the active ignition timing excels - it allows the ECU to run the highest timing possible without engine knock. This results in high power output, good fuel consumption and low exhaust gas temperatures. At these high loads, emissions aren't relevant for passing government emissions testing procedures, since the cars are always tested at relatively light loads - a handy loophole for turbo cars.

It talks about how the ECU says, "Yo! Octane!" and advances the timing without running into knock.

Raj

[RyanC]

None of us is running higher boost. Insinuating that we are doing so just because of our times might irritate some of the others, but I consider it a compliment

That's kinda putting yourself out there...don't you think? The ability to bump boost is so very easy I can't see how you can speak with 100% certainty about anyone else other than yourself. Raj, I am not accusing anyone of running elevated boost pressures, what I am suggesting is to definatively say noone is is being naive.

Not to speak for Raj, but I think the whole focus of this discussion has been on the half-dozen or so STIs that have run in SSU and STGT over the past few seasons; Joe, Raj, Suresh, me, and Paddy. The other guys who run, like Ricer Ron, or Jason M., don't participate in enough events to contest for a championship. So with that in mind, Raj isn't putting himself out there at all, since the folks I mentioned all know what the rest are running, since we all help each other work on our cars.

[Don P]

Do you guys work?