Roll bars in more cars?

[eastcoastbumps]

This is an interesting subject and also very hard to make a ruling on. My WRX went from ST1 to SPB due to Stoptech big brakes. I was upset that I had to install a bar and harnesses, but I wasn't going to make a fuss over adding safety equipment. But at that point I had already been bitten. I have friends that are interested in doing track days with COM. Most of them have modified street cars that should be in SP classes. Telling them that they need a roll bar, harnesses and a fire suit doesn't help get them out on track. It usually curbs their enthusiasim.

On the other hand, Autopower makes a bolt in bar for just about every car out there for under $500. There are also a good few ST guys that have bars already.

Paddys first time as a passenger in the RX7 was also very funny. I down shifted and floored it and soon after he says 'We need more safety gear in this thing!' Very true in a car like that. I did my best to keep it streetable and as safe as possible.

I would say that the rules are fine as is. The event organizers should use their discression when it comes to safety equipment (wreckless, inexperienced, redmisting drivers or not) in fast cars.

[enjoythemusic]

Not me! I don't think I even have that authority!

My apologies, it was the head flag guy/stewart, older gentleman... forget his name. Agreed things happen on the track to both the newbie and the seasoned driver. Sometimes bad things happen to good people

[enjoythemusic]

I have friends that are interested in doing track days with COM. Most of them have modified street cars that should be in SP classes. Telling them that they need a roll bar, harnesses and a fire suit doesn't help get them out on track. It usually curbs their enthusiasm.

Curious, they spent how much $$$ on those mods yet not willing to spend $1k on safety? Am truly interested so please ask them the costs of their mods and post here. Am honestly curious.

This IS NOT to say "You spent XYZ on a ABC car," but to see how much they valued these mods versus how much they value safety.

[Mick]

Curious, they spent how much $$$ on those mods yet not willing to spend $1k on safety? Am truly interested so please ask them the costs of their mods and post here. Am honestly curious.

From what I've seen, it's not about the money it's about the inconvienience of loosing their back seat to a roll bar. It's also not the best idea to be driving a car with a roll bar on the street. Alhouth I don't think that's a factor in most peoples decision.

[WillM]

Showroom Stock (SS) and Street Touring (ST) classes should not require rollcages unless the car in question is a convertible. Our rules already handle that situation. SS and ST are the classes where most newbies and first timers start out. We should be encouraging new members to join, not creating barriers

I do not think our current rules are unsafe or irresponsible. Safety should always be a priority, but we must be realistic with our goals. COM should continue to discuss safety equipment in the classroom and recommend such in our rulebook. I think it would also make sense to clarify and tighten up a few of our rules. Another thing I'd like to see is a discussion about safety systems.

Rollbars, rollbar padding, helmets, helmet restraint systems, harnesses, arm restraints, seats, seatbelts, airbags, and the like, are individual items that are part of an overall safety system. Picking and choosing items without respect to the other safety items installed in the car, in my opinion, is not looking at the big picture.

Rollbars must be properly padded, and in a race car, the padding of choice should be SFI-rated. This type of padding is very stiff and is designed to work together with a helmet. To keep the driver from banging around the cockpit (and into the rollbar), an appropriate harness should be used. To maximize the effectiveness of the harness, a dedicated race seat is a must. With harnesses, a helmeted head, and airbags removed, a head and neck restraint is a great idea. With a HANR, a right-side net should be used. The list goes on...

A rollbar in a commuter car, IMHO, is a compromise which puts safety focus on rollover incidents at the possible expense of safety in non-rollover incidents. Typical highway/public road accidents involve impacts much more frequently than roll-overs. While a rollbar will help in a rollover, the rollbar will introduce a fairly hard object to bounce one's cranium from!

I would think that mandating rollbars in SS and ST cars will cause a lose-lose situation. Those that do not want to install rollbars in their daily drivers won't be able to run with COM. Those that do install rollbars in their daily drivers will possibly open themselves up to less-safe situations for those other 360 days a year when they are not on the track.

As a club, we should give members information regarding safety equipment and encourage them to do their own homework and make their own decisions. There are some exceptions, and I believe our current ruleset handles them nicely. From an instructor point of view, there are a few rules I think we should revisit (ie: seats, harnesses), but these are only exceptions.

I think a discussion about vehicle preparation is also in order. I've worked tech a bunch of times now, and am sometimes amazed at some of the issues that pop-up. Toasted wheel bearings, corded tires, loose batteries, guys coming to tech with their tool boxes in the trunk, etc. A poorly prepped car or driver creates safety issues which could involve many more people and cars.

- Will

[TroyV]

I have friends that are interested in doing track days with COM. Most of them have modified street cars that should be in SP classes. Telling them that they need a roll bar, harnesses and a fire suit doesn't help get them out on track. It usually curbs their enthusiasm.

Curious, they spent how much $$$ on those mods yet not willing to spend $1k on safety? Am truly interested so please ask them the costs of their mods and post here. Am honestly curious.

This IS NOT to say "You spent XYZ on a ABC car," but to see how much they valued these mods versus how much they value safety.

I truely see this is more than a 1k investment. The addition of a bar without a rigid backed racing seat has an element of risk associated with it... The cross bar can easily break the back of a stock seat in the event of a rear ending. So seats really should be added to that purchase. Add the purchase of harnesses and that investment is higher still... Also, I believe it really isn't a good idea to have that kind of rigid restraint system without a HANS. The head can flop all over the place without it... That is common sense all of you are aware of..

So, in my view is it all those things or the lap belt.. So, how does one participate and get a chance to get hooked without being made to make the commitment to the full investment.. Buy a slower car?

[WillM]

Curious, they spent how much $$$ on those mods yet not willing to spend $1k on safety? Am truly interested so please ask them the costs of their mods and post here. Am honestly curious.

Steven, I value your opinion, but I believe your question is based on an unfair generalization. We have to keep in mind that an aftermarket big brake kit, or a carbon fiber hood, or random body kit is enough to push an otherwise 100% stock car into SP.

We also have to keep in mind that track-related safety items, like rollbars, may infact add a level of danger in street-driven cars. Without the other associated safety equipment, a rollbar is not a complete safety system, and as I've said above, may actually cause more harm than good.

To turn your question around, one could ask how much risk is one willing to accept in his daily driver so that he can attend a few track events per year. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you recently decide not to put a rollcage in your Ferrari and instead went to a dedicated open-wheel race car? I think Pete's post above is indicative of the fact that there are a large group of COM members who do not have the luxury of dedicated track cars.

These are the guys (and girls) that drive to an event, perhaps with a small tire trailer in tow, with two goals in mind. First - to be able to drive to work on Monday. Second - to have an awesome time at the track with COM before Monday rolls around.

[Crusin]

before Monday rolls around.

Poor choice of words for this topic....!:tweety:

[Tsurara]

words

I really agree with this. I am in the same boat but decided that I enjoyed driving on the track more than I enjoy daily comforts. The thing we need to keep in mind is that although COM is an really great competitive club, many people come to just have some casual fun and often times that isn't worth drilling up the car to throw in a rollbar and putting in uncomfortable bucket seats and harnesses.

[chaos4NH]

Thanks Will. Well thought out and good common sense logic. I am one of those "weekend warriors" with the tire trailer and my daily driver. I had thought about a bar for my new driver, but agree with the assesment that the bar, without the rest of the goodies would likely be a detriment to my daily safety. Not to mention the dealer's service department thoughts about warrantee issues, should they arise!

[eastcoastbumps]

I have friends that are interested in doing track days with COM. Most of them have modified street cars that should be in SP classes. Telling them that they need a roll bar, harnesses and a fire suit doesn't help get them out on track. It usually curbs their enthusiasm.

Curious, they spent how much $$$ on those mods yet not willing to spend $1k on safety? Am truly interested so please ask them the costs of their mods and post here. Am honestly curious.

This IS NOT to say "You spent XYZ on a ABC car," but to see how much they valued these mods versus how much they value safety.

Steven, as you and I both know, modding cars for the fun of it can run a heafty price. The friends I am refering to value their cars the way you value your Ferrari. They don't like drilling holes or welding just to have someone else tell them that they're safe enough to join the club. Thats the way they see it. The money has little to do with it.

[L98Terror]

Showroom Stock (SS) and Street Touring (ST) classes should not require rollcages unless the car in question is a convertible. Our rules already handle that situation. SS and ST are the classes where most newbies and first timers start out. We should be encouraging new members to join, not creating barriers

I do not think our current rules are unsafe or irresponsible. Safety should always be a priority, but we must be realistic with our goals. COM should continue to discuss safety equipment in the classroom and recommend such in our rulebook. I think it would also make sense to clarify and tighten up a few of our rules. Another thing I'd like to see is a discussion about safety systems.

Rollbars, rollbar padding, helmets, helmet restraint systems, harnesses, arm restraints, seats, seatbelts, airbags, and the like, are individual items that are part of an overall safety system. Picking and choosing items without respect to the other safety items installed in the car, in my opinion, is not looking at the big picture.

Rollbars must be properly padded, and in a race car, the padding of choice should be SFI-rated. This type of padding is very stiff and is designed to work together with a helmet. To keep the driver from banging around the cockpit (and into the rollbar), an appropriate harness should be used. To maximize the effectiveness of the harness, a dedicated race seat is a must. With harnesses, a helmeted head, and airbags removed, a head and neck restraint is a great idea. With a HANR, a right-side net should be used. The list goes on...

A rollbar in a commuter car, IMHO, is a compromise which puts safety focus on rollover incidents at the possible expense of safety in non-rollover incidents. Typical highway/public road accidents involve impacts much more frequently than roll-overs. While a rollbar will help in a rollover, the rollbar will introduce a fairly hard object to bounce one's cranium from!

I would think that mandating rollbars in SS and ST cars will cause a lose-lose situation. Those that do not want to install rollbars in their daily drivers won't be able to run with COM. Those that do install rollbars in their daily drivers will possibly open themselves up to less-safe situations for those other 360 days a year when they are not on the track.

As a club, we should give members information regarding safety equipment and encourage them to do their own homework and make their own decisions. There are some exceptions, and I believe our current ruleset handles them nicely. From an instructor point of view, there are a few rules I think we should revisit (ie: seats, harnesses), but these are only exceptions.

I think a discussion about vehicle preparation is also in order. I've worked tech a bunch of times now, and am sometimes amazed at some of the issues that pop-up. Toasted wheel bearings, corded tires, loose batteries, guys coming to tech with their tool boxes in the trunk, etc. A poorly prepped car or driver creates safety issues which could involve many more people and cars.

- Will

100% agree

[Smoke and Mirrors]

I am tempted to propose /To read:

"Roll bars are required in all Street Prepared and Prepared cars, as well as SSU, ST1, and STGT, and in all convertible and open cars regardless of class."

Let the flames begin.

That means that anyone with a Corvette/ Cobra/etc that even wants to try out COMSCC as a student needs to have a rollbar installed.
This will seriously deter a lot of people from attending.
I know its a grey area to define who/what needs a roll bar.
New drivers with high HP cars can lap somehwere like LRP in the high teens and still pull 130's in the straight. Low HP cars with good drivers can run 20 seconds faster and maybe only hit 110. I think leaving the rules as they stand is the way to go, but strongly suggesting that "regulars" that are running quick in non-caged cars look into one. Right now I am following L98Terror's research into how effective 4 points are in C5's because I am in the process of installing a 5 point but have been getting conflicting info on how safe it makes the car overall in street driving and track driving..

[Stevie K.]

I have spent a little time in the pits working circle track racing, been a fan of racing for years. There are a lot of good points being made above. For each car involved there is a unique situation. As for myself, I have a car that I know full well from racing experience may be gone in the first turn. I'm not thinking about monday morning's commute, and I don't understand why anyone would risk a daily driver doing this. I managed to get my car trackworthy for the 11/06 LRP HPDE. In the spring I look forward to NHIS, but there's NO WAY I'm going out there for that kind of excitement without a roll bar, if not a full cage. I consider a five-point harness, race seat, helmet, gloves, eye protection, padding, aand all glass removed to be a MINIMUN safety package. I am also hoping to add a HANS device so that I can responsibly and consciously participate with great enthusiasm! It was very obvious to me that running my stock '79 Chevy at speeds 100+ , and cornering and passing in close proximity to other members was putting myself and them at risk.
I had read a lot of the, "just bring your car, a helmet and a smile" type of HPDE descriptions. I saw no place for that at Lime Rock. It seems to me that this club is made up of well-prepaired race-minded members who like to run high-speed, full-sized courses. That requires a good bit of safety prep, in my opinion.
I'm a little pessimistic about the future of all things fun. I don't see how these clubs have been able to go on holding these events, using members' personal vehicles. I do, however, think it's great!
I say let the Helmets and Hundais go knock over cones in the Stop & Shop parking lot, and have proper race prep. for proper race courses.

[chaos4NH]

StevieK:
Maybe we like running our street cars with COM 'cause we can't run them to their potential on public streets? I guess you have never found the need to "test out" your street car? Where else could you run your car at 100+ mph? Many of us would like to have a dedicated track car, in the mean time we run TIME TRIALS and track sessions.
As far as roundy round racers, they beat and bang and cause all kinds of mayhem and roll overs are COMMON, they need cages. They RACE.