Roll bars in more cars?

[enjoythemusic]

Preventing serious injury has less to do about absolute speed than it does w/ car prep and driver prep.

Agreed, car and driver prep are key. Perhaps not a 'total solution,' though making sure the nut behind the wheel is firmly attached does wonders for safety.

[turtlevette]

How many injuries are due to rollover and how many due to impact with a wall? The incidents i've seen are cars hitting something, not rolling over. Some......ALL of the tracks we run at have somewhat solid walls pretty darn close to the track. Some worse than others. Browsing around the different forums it seems pretty much agreed that Watkins and LRP can be dangerous tracks. Lots of concrete walls at NHIS too.

Maybe we should be discussing some sort of mandatory neck support device (HANS) for.......... everybody???

Maybe we need a comittee to review known accidents and make a recommendation?

[Grippy]

We should "recommend" or "suggest" that people use roll bars but not require them. We do not want to keep potential members from attending events because they don't want to put a bar in their street car. Quite often the hook gets set and they realize the benefit to having a safer (caged) dedicated track car so they don't risk balling up their nice expensive street car.

My first year I drove my street Miata with a bolt in bar but after seeing a few cars hit the wall I decided I wanted a full cage. Stuff happens on a race track, and not always in the drivers control to prevent or avoid.

[skid vicious]

I think it's clear that we must be very careful about requiring non stock roll protection in these classes because of the barrier that it presents to people who are just getting involved in the sport/club and those of us with dual use vehicles. As it has already been stated we are responsible people and we are the ones who choose how hard to push the gas pedal, and as long as we are aware of the risks we are responsible for the consequences. In that line of reasoning perhaps there is more we could do to educate people about the risks and the devices designed to reduce that risk. Maybe a safety brochure available on the website (your car, your rollbar, and you?). Also the club could do more to encourage people to look into additional roll protection while stopping short of making it a requirement such as mentioning it at the drivers meeting, and devoting a little more time to it in the classroom. Just to keep it from slipping to the back of peoples minds.

There is some gray area when these cars are carrying instructors. In this case maybe there should be some mechanism (I'm sure there already is in an informal way) that allows an instructor to 'pull the plug' on a student the instructor feels is putting them in jeopordy, compounded by a lack of safety equipment.

[nateh]

Wow, this has generated an excellent discussion, and in my opinion, some ideas worth pursuing further.

I want to throw in just a few points:

- Energy is proportional to the square of the speed, so at 140 mph there is twice is much energy to dissipate as at 100 mph.

- Fred's right that modern cars are much better at safely dissipating that energy. And air bags are a great thing as well, in "recent" street cars. (I'm an old guy, you can tell!)

- Requiring roll bars in fast street cars is not forcing anybody to do anything. It's only saying to folks that if they want to risk their brain pans in their cars, they must do it on their own time (and at their own risk), not COM's. And maybe sending a message to the street bombers that they might want to consider spending money on safety as well as bling, prior to exploring their rides' limits.

And yes, I spent a lot of time haring through woods at unrecommended speeds in a tin can. I was young and foolish - and there will ever be those, god bless 'em. COM's role ought to include the teaching and encouragement of SAFE enjoyment of high performance automobiles.

Maybe a laptime cutoff is the way to go. But somebody can go real quick down the straights and still have a slow lap.

Especially someone who doesn't have the experience to deal appropriately - at 140 MPH, perhaps - with a couple of wheels in the dirt (Watkins Glen 2003 - thank goodness for air bags!), a rabbit running across the track (Beaverun 2004), a wheel taking a hike into the river (Lime Rock 2005), or a blown radiator hose (Lime Rock 2006), ... or one of the many other things that inevitably happen from time to time on a race track.

- Nate

[L98Terror]

I guess I should take some time to respond to this thread since for some reason I have a feeling that it is directed at me I guess that's a good thing

This is my take on it, first from a safety stand point, can someone direct me to some research that shows a roll bar that some dude welds into a Z06 makes it safer than the millions of dollars that GM poured into the safety design of the Corvette. To address a earlier point the Z06 was design to travel at a high rate of speed, an escort was not. So what is more dangerous an Mazda 323 racing around a race track for which it wasn't designed or a Corvette Z06 that was designed for that purpose.

Second your addressing speed, yet lap times have little to do with how fast someone can go on the straight away. but it is better than nothing. I was taugh at a COMScc HPDE that a driver driving the correct line will always be faster than someone off line. So lap times are not directly proportional with the amount of risk a person is taken. Someone on the correct line will be faster and safer than someone driving off line.


Got to go finish my thoughts later

[Mick]

It's not directed at you.

[L98Terror]

It's not directed at you.

Sure it is, well me and Glen. We're the ones running faster than every other class in stock cars and we were referenced in the first post.

About spending money on safety I'm all for that and have done that I bought a low mile high performance car.

Discretion will need to be used here, some how you need to come up with a system that uses the judgement of some group of people to decide on what is safe and what isn't. Somehow I have a feeling it should be a combination of driver experience, driver responsibility, driver habits, car speed, car age & car maintenance levels.

I'm doing some research on the effectiveness of a roll bar in a Z06 and haven't gotten any solid information that it even helps in 99% of the accidents that occur during lapping and TT. I mean it might help in a roll over but that is about it.

People keep talking about cars that hit 140 + but how offen is there a issue at those speeds at the end of a straight? Don't most issues accure during cornering? A miata can corner as fast as a Corvette so why would we only make changes in the top groups?

Either way if I am allowed to run I will continue to run a couple events a year if not oh well. This year I'm focused on NCCCs rules, next year it will be NASA.

[Mick]

Look. I don't want to drag this off topic, I just want to clarify that no one is pointing fingers and singling anyone out. Yes, you happen to be referenced in the thread but that doesn't mean it's directed at you. It's about the big picture, COM's stance on roll bars/cages and it's effect on driver safety vs. attendance. This is a debate that has been going on long before this thread was started.

This is a touchy subject with some people I'm sure. I believe safety to be a personal preference. I don't want anyone to tell me to wear a helmet, seatbelt or do anything else ( including waiting for a point by ). Sometimes safety becomes a little to pc for my tastes. If I want to be stupid in someone else opinion, it has happened, let me be whatever I want to be as long as I don't affect you. Rules are to protect the membership as a whole from obvious dangerous situations.

Greg, I agree to a point, but in this situation it does affect others that's why the club is responsible to enforce safety. COM is who will have to answer to the track and insrance company if someone gets hurt. Not the guy who decides he doesn't need safety equipment. If the tracks see us as unsafe club we become a liability and they may not want us back.

[L98Terror]

Look. I don't want to drag this off topic, I just want to clarify that no one is pointing fingers and singling anyone out. Yes, you happen to be referenced in the thread but that doesn't mean it's directed at you. It's about the big picture, COM's stance on roll bars/cages and it's effect on driver safety vs. attendance. This is a debate that has been going on long before this thread was started.

I am aware of that, I had this discussion a few months ago with Nate. I'm not taking it personally nor do I think you or anyone is singling anyone out, but I am in the middle of this because it affects me and I am one of the people that caused this whole discussion to transpire or am at least adding to it. The biggest question I have is there any data that shows that a roll bar makes a new car safer and to what degree.

I am taking this discussion and my safety seriously, I'm looking into these things and will post if and when I get any answers.


On another note I'm very happy with the level of concern and safety that COMScc expects and requires. I've run with many clubs in the mid west and I'll tell you COMScc is by far the best run & safest. I glad my first events were with COMscc & I'm trying to increase the level of safety with some clubs out here.

[nateh]

I'm far from an expert on these matters. But as the person who started the thread I can at least be authoritative on my own motives! The fact is I've been concerned about the horsepower arms race in street cars for a while. The low lap times of the 2 Vettes at LRP reminded me and got me revved up enough to actually start a thread on the issue.

Roll bars only help in rollovers. These are a tiny fraction of track day accidents - but they are also one of the most likely types of accident to lead to serious injury. Hence my focus on roll bars. (Note that I did not say roll cages.)

High speeds are much more likely to lead to heavy wrecks, and in turn to rollovers. The highest speeds are reached at the end of straights, not in corners. A Miata can't go faster than about 110 on the tracks COM runs - even with a tailwind. On the other hand, an increasing number of cars can hit 140+ on the long straights at LPR, the Glen, Mosport, etc.

People are more likely to roll, and more likely to get killed, when stuff happens at high speeds. (And yes, Miatas have rolled, as have other "slow cars". I'm talking likelihoods here.) Stuff happens to good drivers and it happens to bad drivers. Novices are less likely to deal effectively with the resulting crisis, and novice drivers are more likely to have a slow laptime to go with their high top speed.

Another anecdote: several years ago at a COM event at the Glen, a bolt worked loose in the rear suspension of a Vette, going into turn 1. He ended up rolling through the gravel and hitting the wall with his roof. Most observers felt that his roll bar saved his life.

(In fairness: I've seen cases where the cage in a Spec Miata saved the driver's life, too. But I think the percentages go up with maximum speed.)

- Nate

[gread]

I still believe that stock based classes should not require any additional equipment in order to participate in COMSCC events. This is a club for facilitating the enjoyment of track experiences with fellow enthusiast. None of the times we run are that great in the grand scheme of things. LRP is a great example of a track were lap times between groups are not significant. The Corvette times are not great in terms of the cars potential. The best Spec Miata time is a 1:01. COMSCC times for records have not been great due more to weather conditions over the years, than to driving talent and car performance. I know the L98 believes he's crushing it on his other forum boards, but 1 good weather day at LRP doesn't say much. Many cars had offs on Fri with the bad track conditions and you probably couldn't single out a certain run group or class for being the worst. It was across the board bad driving.
I agree with Nate that it becomes difficult to decide how to regulate stock based classes with additional safety gear. Someone will eventually get seriously injured at a COM event. It is an inevietable risk based on the type of fun we like to have. I don't think we can say what class or run group it will happen and for that reason I don't think we can discriminate against any type of car beforehand. Some of us have already moved forward in the safety department hoping it will lessen the eventual impact, but even well prepped racecars have people die in them. Let 'em all run, if we die, at least I was enjoying myself...

[brucesallen]

Roll bars are for rollovers. Imagine grinding your head down to the neck bone when the car is upside down. Or, as when I was working Turn 9 at Bridgehampton in 94 (I think) Peter Polli in his Corvette ZR-1 in the time trial after getting a right rear flat entering the Valley of Lefts came bounding in a multiple side roll, then landed flat on the roof and then end over end culminating in a right side up finish in front of me with no front wheels, battery or exhaust system. He was fine except for a cracked rib. He had a roll cage. Loss of control was in a corner doing maybe 90 mph. Bounced for a quarter mile.

On the other hand I can remember seeing only two rolls in COM in 19 years so maybe it is overkill in SP.

On the third hand a stock Z06 is faster than Peter's modified ZR-1.

[enjoythemusic]

Wow, you make many good points.

I still believe that stock based classes should not require any additional equipment in order to participate in COMSCC events. This is a club for facilitating the enjoyment of track experiences with fellow enthusiast.

Agreed. Still, can not help but also agree that as a driver's talent increases (lap times decreasing) the desire of having a roll bar becomes more important. Of course even the slowest driver can have an incident...

Many cars had offs on Fri with the bad track conditions and you probably couldn't single out a certain run group or class for being the worst. It was across the board bad driving.

This is usually why i try to avoid 'last call of the season' driving events, and am extra careful during the last drive session of an event. It seems to bring out...

I agree with Nate that it becomes difficult to decide how to regulate stock based classes with additional safety gear. Someone will eventually get seriously injured at a COM event. It is an inevitable risk based on the type of fun we like to have. I don't think we can say what class or run group it will happen and for that reason I don't think we can discriminate against any type of car beforehand.

Agreed, and it is sad but a fact that odds being odds... things happen.

Some of us have already moved forward in the safety department hoping it will lessen the eventual impact, but even well prepped racecars have people die in them.

Agreed. Naturally common sense in the safety department can go a long way, though there ARE times when someone might use less 'sense' and not keep an eye on safety. THAT is where having a rule in place could help save a life(lives). As always, COM can reserve the right to refuse to allow a car/driver on the track. Perhaps COM can suggest less than subtle safety hints to certain drivers. Is said hints are not followed that would mean being ejected off the track.

Filed under the "It happened to me" folder:
At the ?November? 2005 event at NHIS where it was 45F and slow rain all day, the last part part where it was open track on Sunday i had a spin going into turn 3. i came in, spoke with ?Nate?, he asked questions, we calmly discussed it for a total of 20 seconds, and he ejected me. i appreciated his ejecting me and thanked him afterwards. It was a bad track day (for me) and the car was being challenging. My car's setup that day wound up having way too much oversteer making the rear end wanting to come around TOO easily. MY fault for not dialing that out. So yes, i have been ejected and there was no debate nor argument. In fact i thanked him afterwards. ?Nate? had the final say and i agree with his wisdom.

[nateh]

i came in, spoke with ?Nate?, he asked questions, we calmly discussed it for a total of 20 seconds, and he ejected me.

Not me! I don't think I even have that authority!

For me, this is not about driver skill or experience. Stuff happens to any driver.

On another thread, there is discussion of moving some cars from SSU to ST. This has been tried in the club before, and maybe should be again. (As Jeff I pointed out, the rules are actually ambiguous on the point right now.)

Maybe we should move super/tuner cars to STGT, then require roll bars in STGT? Maybe ST1 as well?