Classes Revised for 2007

[Seven]

It seems that my thoughts pertaining factory tweaked cars was far from original. To quote the current rules, Sec. IX. para 1:

"The Showroom Stock (SS) category is intended to provide competition for mass produced stock automobiles. Kit cars and limited production cars modified by the manufacturer or aftermarket companies and resold through authorized original OEM suppliers (Saleen, Callaway, BMW Motorsports, Ford SVT, etc.) are not considered Showroom Stock."

The provision is already in the rules to bump manufacturer tuned vehicles out of SS. Actually, if you were to continue to the ST rules, Sec. X. Para 2:

"Kit cars and limited production cars modified by the manufacturer or aftermarket companies and resold through authorized original OEM suppliers are not considered Street Touring."

This language reflects my thoughts expressed in previous posts. In short, ZO6, STi, EVO, Saleen, BMW-M, AMG, and the like should be, at a minimum ST and in some instances SP right out of the box.

Btw, a stock F150 Lightening in SSGT!!! w/ STi, E36 M3, et. al., come-on.

[nateh]

Jeff -

I suggest you prepare a proposal for next year.

- Nate

[Seven]

Why don't we just properly administer the existing rules language. Seems that anyone wanting to protest an STi in SSGT would have the grounds to do so given the quoted language above. Unless, of course, that language is to be struck in the '07 rules.

Btw, what's the magic behind the 11/15 date for rules change submissions? I certainly understand the requirement for deadlines, however, the club should maintain flexibility to correct what some may feel are significant flaws.

The club should be more concerned with maximizing competitive balance rather than adhering to capricious deadlines.

[xstar]

Hi Jeff, since you understand the requirements for deadlines, 11/15 is the deadline. It takes time for the board to review each submission and vote on them. Sometimes it takes two monthly board meetings to finish voting on all rule change requests.

If you would like to suggest a change to the rules here, please start with the text of the rule you would like changed, then amend the text of the rule to what you see best fit. Lastly, back up your suggestion with reasoning, which you are already doing.

If you want to restructure SSU and SSGT, create your list and discuss it here. The board of directors would be happy to consider it in 2007.

thanks,

Alex Teng
COM President

[DanDarcy]

I agree with Jeff on some points and not on others. Nate did a great job based on horse power to weight of cars, but this does not take into account torque nor handling. In the old rules I had to run ST1 because my Mustang SVT Cobra (305 h.p., 300 ft.# torque) was limited production (10,049 made in 1997, not realy that limited) yet a WRX STi ran in street stock class (7,210 made in 2004, more limited than the Cobra) under the new rules I believe I would be in SSGT (if I had not changed my brakes), same class as the WRX STi which can run circles around the stock 1997 Mustang Cobra.
In the new ST1 class , I will run against the modified STis which run 3-5 seconds faster. The Mustang is nose heavy with poor handling. As for cars like the Z06, I agree with Jeff that they should be in the SP class or even P class. We should try in the future to class by potential speed and lap times , not by horse power to weight only.
I think the STi should be in SSU along with the Lancer Evo.There may also be some other cars that need to be moved to a different class. I know the classes will never please everyone but we should try to get the cars as close to each other as possible, maybe even look at past time trial results for comparison.

[BrakeL8r]

Hi Jeff, since you understand the requirements for deadlines, 11/15 is the deadline. It takes time for the board to review each submission and vote on them. Sometimes it takes two monthly board meetings to finish voting on all rule change requests.

If you would like to suggest a change to the rules here, please start with the text of the rule you would like changed, then amend the text of the rule to what you see best fit. Lastly, back up your suggestion with reasoning, which you are already doing.

If you want to restructure SSU and SSGT, create your list and discuss it here. The board of directors would be happy to consider it in 2007.

thanks,

Alex Teng
COM President

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past years, the board has treated all non- car classification rules with this hard deadline, but has allowed car class modulation up until the first event of the following season. And cars that are not classed can be classed in the middle of a season with board approval.

--Michael
ST4 Miata #176

[Seven]

I can't wait to get a C5 Z06 in the spring.

Here little Sti.... here boy.

I'm flattered that someone would resort to such measures to beat the STi .

The STi is, after all, a humble grocery getter that puts down only 230hp to the wheels on an all wheel dyno, runs on skinny 235 wide tires, weighs in at a corpulent 3350lbs, and has springs that are softer than RyanC's head.

Raj

Raj,

I haven't really paid much attention so I've got to ask, are the STGT STis running both cats? Stock boost? What kind of power are you making w/ only an intake and a cat-back? Pretty impressive times with such a meager hp/weight ratio....4wd doesn't hurt I'm sure

[rajito]

I still have OEM intake. I was running the OEM catback until I bent it at the last NHIS event on a rock somewhere outside turn 5. Now I have a $100 catback I bought used last year, but I haven't had it on a dyno yet. A dyno run costs as much as a set of front brake pads

I also have some lame aftermarket springs and swaybars. I totally screwed up this year during time trials at LRP and only was .3 quicker than last year, when I had a bone stock STi.

Paddy in the stock silver SSU STi clocked a 1:02.6, .6 secs faster than I did last year in the exact same car, even though I have more experience at LRP than he does. I'm sure he could pull a 0:51.0 second lap in mine I couldn't keep up with him at Calabogie where both of us had no experience.

AWD helps - the car drives itself with absolutely no driver involvement.

Raj

[RyanC]

I can't wait to get a C5 Z06 in the spring.

Here little Sti.... here boy.

I'm flattered that someone would resort to such measures to beat the STi .

The STi is, after all, a humble grocery getter that puts down only 230hp to the wheels on an all wheel dyno, runs on skinny 235 wide tires, weighs in at a corpulent 3350lbs, and has springs that are softer than RyanC's head.

Raj

Raj,

I haven't really paid much attention so I've got to ask, are the STGT STis running both cats? Stock boost? What kind of power are you making w/ only an intake and a cat-back? Pretty impressive times with such a meager hp/weight ratio....4wd doesn't hurt I'm sure

We have to run cats as catless exhaust setups are not class legal. My car is the sole STGT STi with a tune, still at stock boost, and I make a whopping 267whp with slightly less torque. Pre-tune the car made about 245whp, give or take a few. Race weight on my car is 3375 or so, according to the scales at Les' shop. Being able to put the power down certainly helps, but the cars are great handlers and have fantastic brakes.

I think SSGT is going to be a bit slow of a class for the STI, but SSU is a bit tough. We've just been lucky the last few years that the guys in faster cars haven't driven all that quickly. Look at the LRP results; there's no way a stock STI on hoosiers would run sub-1:00 laptimes, but a couple knuckle-draggers in Z06s made it happen (just kidding guys, only Ken's knuckles actually hit the ground when he walks). The T2 Evo that ran, with the exception of the boost increase, would have been the epitome of an STGT setup, and he ran low 1:00s; the STI in similar trim would probably fare the same.

[Seven]

Man...those stats are amazing! Y'all are putting down some absolutely smoking times to begin with then when you account for the relatively low HP and high weight, the numbers are even more impressive. Kudos!!!

To your point regarding STis in SSU...how would you expect them to fare if the C5s, the Viper ACRs, Ferrari 360, 911TT were in ST or SP? I suspect the STi would dominate.

At first blush, the way I see it is the STi, EVO, C5, Viper ACR, Ford GT, Saleen Mustang (the 500hp one), 911TT (putting aside the numerous factory tuned 911s - GT3 etc), should be SP out of the box. It may sound odd to put the Japanese cars in w/ these other high HP super cars, but the reason is a simple 2 part formula...

1) What class would the more tame version of these cars be in stock trim? Then what class would they be in if they modified their cars to exactly replicate the factory tuned version?

2) The eyes have it... Just look at the times being put down by the aggressive drivers in these cars...

[bhoss]

Jeff posted

"At first blush, the way I see it is the STi, EVO, C5, Viper ACR, Ford GT, Saleen Mustang (the 500hp one), 911TT (putting aside the numerous factory tuned 911s - GT3 etc), should be SP out of the box. It may sound odd to put the Japanese cars in w/ these other high HP super cars, but the reason is a simple 2 part formula... "

Jeff -
If these cars were automatically put into an SP class then they would need to be caged and the driver would need a firesuit - this would, in effect prevent any of these cars as they are currently configured from running with COM. I doubt that many of these owners are going to make these changes to their street cars.

Bill

[Seven]

Jeff posted

"At first blush, the way I see it is the STi, EVO, C5, Viper ACR, Ford GT, Saleen Mustang (the 500hp one), 911TT (putting aside the numerous factory tuned 911s - GT3 etc), should be SP out of the box. It may sound odd to put the Japanese cars in w/ these other high HP super cars, but the reason is a simple 2 part formula... "

Jeff -
If these cars were automatically put into an SP class then they would need to be caged and the driver would need a firesuit - this would, in effect prevent any of these cars as they are currently configured from running with COM. I doubt that many of these owners are going to make these changes to their street cars.

Bill

Good point Bill. However, there is currently a discussion in another thread about this type of consideration. There is an argument to suggest that safety equipment should be required based upon potential speed as much as modifications. I have to say that I have always felt this way as well. This theory is shared in drag racing where cars running below X seconds must have certain safety gear of the track won't allow them to run. It makes alot of sense.

[OJUSTRACING]

I know this is my first post. But was reviewing the class for the cars.

Why is a Pontiac Formula in SSGT when a plain v-8 camaro is in SSA. These cars are clones less badging. The Transam, WS6 and Firehawk should be the ones is SSGT.

John Oliver

[mossaidis]

A friend of mine owns a SSC 99 Honda Civic Si and claims to run LRP at 1:04.6. I'm sure he's an awesome driver, but it made me rethink SS classifications for the Civic. I ran down the list again that Nate posted above and found the oddity. Strictly based on numbers, I found the following from edmunds.com:

Year Model Weight HP lbs/hp Torque ft-lbs/lbs Notes Current COM Class
89 Civic Si 2185 108 20.23 100 21.85 Other reference SSC
90 (-91) CRX Si 2174 108 20.13 100 21.74 Edmunds SSC
92 (-95) Civic Si 2326 125 18.61 106 21.94 Edmunds SSC
(99-) 00 Civic Si 2601 160 16.26 111 23.43 Edmunds SSC
02 (-05) Civic Si 2744 160 17.15 132 20.79 Edmunds SSB
06 Civic Si 2877 197 14.6 139 20.7 Edmunds SSB
94 Nissan SER 2467 140 17.62 132 18.69 Edmunds SSC

(I posted the SER as a general reference). Anyway, the 02-05 Si is rated 17.15 lbs/hp and is in SSB where as the 99-00 Si is rated even better at 16.26 lbs/hp and is in SSC where most other civic's are over 18.6 lbs/hp.

did I miss something? something more compelling that I have not noticed? torque?

Based on Honda relative data, I would guess that 99-00 Civic Si belongs in SSB, where as 02-05 Civic Si belongs in SSC. I can't agrue for "stock" performance levels, but I know Honda gurus all argee that the double-wishbone suspension of the 99-00 is far suporior to the suspension in the 02-05, which prompted Honda to change things in the 06+ Si models. The double-wishbone suspension would make a signficant difference when applying suspension upgrades in ST and up.

Trying to get some attention here w/o making full of Mark's "lengthy" emails (which have been better lately)!

Nate, any thoughts or feedback on my comments? do you need any clarification? Will you table all of our suggestions until the next board meeting?

Thanks, mickey

PS. I don't think there was ever a 2001 Civic Si (listed under SSC)
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/honda/civic/index.html

[eastcoastbumps]

Man...those stats are amazing! Y'all are putting down some absolutely smoking times to begin with then when you account for the relatively low HP and high weight, the numbers are even more impressive. Kudos!!!

To your point regarding STis in SSU...how would you expect them to fare if the C5s, the Viper ACRs, Ferrari 360, 911TT were in ST or SP? I suspect the STi would dominate.

At first blush, the way I see it is the STi, EVO, C5, Viper ACR, Ford GT, Saleen Mustang (the 500hp one), 911TT (putting aside the numerous factory tuned 911s - GT3 etc), should be SP out of the box. It may sound odd to put the Japanese cars in w/ these other high HP super cars, but the reason is a simple 2 part formula...

1) What class would the more tame version of these cars be in stock trim? Then what class would they be in if they modified their cars to exactly replicate the factory tuned version?

2) The eyes have it... Just look at the times being put down by the aggressive drivers in these cars...

Jeff, SP is a far reach for an out of the box STi or Evo. The STi is an Impreza, a model that comes in many trims: Outback, 2.5i, WRX, WRX TR, STi and STi Limited. You must view them all as they come from the factory and put all of them in stock classes. The STi shares very few parts with the WRX or base Impreza. You can't consider the STi a WRX built by the factory to ST specs. The same way you can't consider a WRX a 2.5i built to SP specs becuase it has a turbocharged motor. You also can't put a stock factory turbocharged car into SP just because the factory also makes an N/A version.

Jeff, can I run SSGT with an LS1 RX7? Its SSGT stock and I'm using a motor out of another SSGT car.