Roll bars in more cars?

[nateh]

For some time, it has concerned me that more and more cars are becoming available, for not too darn much money, that can do rather unsafe speeds at the tracks we run. People doing 140 MPH or more without a roll bar or cage, under COM auspices, seems like it's becoming more and more of a real risk to the members and therefore to the club.

A couple of bone stock Vettes did sub-1:00 laps at Lime Rock last weekend. This is scary fast, in a very real sense.

I am tempted to propose that some of the higher levels of ST and SS classes be required to run roll bars, at least.

Specifically, we could amend the statement:

"Roll bars are required in all Street Prepared and Prepared cars and in all convertible and open cars regardless of class."

To read:

"Roll bars are required in all Street Prepared and Prepared cars, as well as SSU, ST1, and STGT, and in all convertible and open cars regardless of class."

Let the flames begin.

[enjoythemusic]

Nate,

It is indeed a balance. Can see where some STGT guys use their cars on the street, as they are still street legal, and so roll bars may make things a bit tricky. Not a clue about the other classes, though agree these new cars rolling off the assembly lines are very fast.

[RyanC]

Nate,
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. Personally I put in a bar after I started running times that were faster than some of the fully prepped SP cars, so I thought it was a wise idea for my own safety. But, I'm not sure if I think we should force folks to but bars, seats and harnesses in their cars though, since not all drivers are running the same speeds. It is quite intrusive for a dual-use street/track car to lose half it's usable interior, and can be quite expensive as well. I got a good deal on my rollbar, bought a used seat, and still spent probably $1500, without having to pay for an installation. I can easily see someone spending $2000 or more if they can't find decent used stuff.

I'll be interested to see how this thread pans out, as I'm not convinced either way, but I would lean towards leaving the rules as-is with regards to safety.

[Crusin]

This discussion has been held in the past. The basis of the discussions were that SP cars require roll bars while faster SS cars do not.

One side of the discussion is that the newer high performance cars are designed for their rated and capable speeds, so they are safe from the factory. On the otherhand, older cars modified to a higher level of performance like SP classes were never designed for the newer high rate of speed, thus a roll bar/cage adds a level of security.

The other side of the discussion is dead is dead/injured is injured. The faster you go, the greater the chances.

[TroyV]

What is the difference if a car rolls at 100 or at 140.....beyond the theorhetical.. It's a bad and potentially deadly situation either way.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. My Cobra is a street car, but it makes an aweful lot of power. I ran 1:59 at Tremblant, which for a driver of intermediate skill is fairly quick compared to the average.

I think this is where the license comes in. Are folks getting signed off too easily? I would think not. Bill Sarno grilled me at NHIS 2 for me to earn mine, and I'm proud of that accomplishment. I'm on this tangent for a purpose, bear with me..

How many incidents have happened at a Com event, high speed related, with an instructor in the car and the driver a student? How many of the same incidents have happened with Licensed drivers? Lastly how many incidents have happened with licensed (or instructors for that matter) folks in the hunt for a trophy. I ask you to really look at the statistics of the answers to those questions... I would add that you use data from COM only as the other clubs have different requirements and do things in different ways, and in my opinion COM is a little more strict with licensing in regard to the student's individual capabilities..

I would submit that the larger number of incidents are folks that are of intermediate and advanced status pushing the envelope of their skill. I would also submit that the element of competition of the TT puts addtional drive to that end.

If the board was to decide that all SSU STGT and whatever other classes the board deems appropriate, must have bars, It would bum me out, but I would understand the reasons why....and I would say have a nice 07 season without me.

Perhaps the requirement could be based on and limited to those who are there to participate in the TT. This could keep students with SSU and STGT cars paying into the kitty for those critical away events that struggle for attendance.

I'm not saying I disagree with the requirement, but it will alienate a good portion of people from running that are good citizens and drive within their limits, and have cars that pass the tech inspection and are in a good state of prep.....such as myself.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying in summary is that if everyone is doing the jobs they are supposed to do in all facets....tech inspection...class room instruction and in car instruction, then COM will continue to turn out drivers that are good citizens that fully understand the risks associated with this activity, and drive accordingly. It certainly won't prevent incidents from happening, but it will help.

[zip4zat]

For the reasons that Nate cites, I also decided to throw a roll bar in the car (STGT). Even out of the box, the STi is capable of some stupid speeds at many of the tracks that we visit. For the track time that this car sees, a roll bar with proper race seats and harnesses is short change compared to getting dead (or at least lower the risk of getting dead).

I did this at my own discression with similar sentiments from others in the subaru crowd. If we enforce this rule for all those in the proposed SS or ST classes I think it would discourage newcomers that have slightly modified cars that want to participate in the DE side of the club, eventhough I would support the safety intent of Nates thoughts.

The enforement of this proposal would have similar difficulty to enforcing the reqiured roll bar for SP cars when cars show up with nothing but a BBK but no roll bar. Perhaps an admendment to the rules that the stewards have the discresion to allow certain things slide for the DE, and maybe not for the TT.

[gread]

This is a touchy subject with some people I'm sure. I believe safety to be a personal preference. I don't want anyone to tell me to wear a helmet, seatbelt or do anything else ( including waiting for a point by ). Sometimes safety becomes a little to pc for my tastes. If I want to be stupid in someone else opinion, it has happened, let me be whatever I want to be as long as I don't affect you. Rules are to protect the membership as a whole from obvious dangerous situations. That being said, running a street car above 100mph is an obviously dangerous situation the car wasn't designed for. I chose to go to a full cage because a rollbar wasn't enough of a buffer for the speeds I was obtaining at some tracks. To me a rollbar really doesn't offer much in safety except for a place to mount your belts. I made this decision on my own and it represented an increase in commitment to doing track events. COMSCC is a group of people enjoying some friendly time at the track. I don't think we should alienate certain classes with requiring cages in lower levels of prep. If others running fast times come to a similar decision to step up the safety and prep of their cars, let them make the decision on their own. Let COM be an incubating ground for future racers or just a fun place for people to "run what they brung". Don't get too oppressive with the rules.

[DanDarcy]

I did my first Com DE event in a stock Z06. After that one event , I decided it was crazy to do it without a rollbar and 5-6 point harness. I didn't want to cut up the interior of an almost new Z06 so I bought a wrecked Mustang Cobra. The first thing that went in was an eight point rollbar and 5 point harnesses. This was my decision to make not the rules. I have yet to install a racing seat (still have the stock leather seats) but may do so this winter.
If I had not been allowed to use the Z06 the first time (without roll bar) , I would not have never done a Com event and become a steady member for the last 3 years.
An option to this could be that once you go below a certain time on a track you must than have a roll bar (similar to NHRA). ie: lap time quicker than 1:05 at Lime Rock requires roll bar.
I would hate to see rollbars required for SS and ST classes in general.

[BrakeL8r]

I'm going to throw this out there, not because I necessarily am behind it, but like seeing multiple opinions. Personally I agree with Greg's comments about leaving it up to the driver to step up to the plate (AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT AFFECT OTHERS' SAFTEY).

What came to mind, would be to do something like they do at Epping on "run what you brung" night. (Sorry guys, straight line 1/4 mile stuff). As soon as you start hitting the lower times, your car must be more safety prep'ed (e.g., roll bar or cage). I don't know anything more about it (being a guy who likes to make turns), like what times or speeds would bump you up, and what safety gear is required.

Granted, this would be difficult (impossible?) to enforce at tech of day 1. We could do something like refuse to award points or trophies to drivers in SS or ST cars that don't have a rollbar that exceed some pre-designated lap time (obviously track and class dependent).

As I say, this would be difficult to enforce or monitor. I'm only sketching a boilerplate idea here. Maybe someone who is intersted in pursuing it could fill in the blanks.

--Michael
ST4 Miata #176, full 8-pt weld-in cage

[dinoracer]

What came to mind, would be to do something like they do at Epping on "run what you brung" night. (Sorry guys, straight line 1/4 mile stuff). As soon as you start hitting the lower times, your car must be more safety prep'ed (e.g., roll bar or cage). I don't know anything more about it (being a guy who likes to make turns), like what times or speeds would bump you up, and what safety gear is required.

Granted, this would be difficult (impossible?) to enforce at tech of day 1. We could do something like refuse to award points or trophies to drivers in SS or ST cars that don't have a rollbar that exceed some pre-designated lap time (obviously track and class dependent).

As I say, this would be difficult to enforce or monitor. I'm only sketching a boilerplate idea here. Maybe someone who is intersted in pursuing it could fill in the blanks.

--Michael
ST4 Miata #176, full 8-pt weld-in cage

I'll second where Mike's going here. As above, NHRA/IHRA (drag racing sanctioning bodies) have specific safety equipment requirements based on 1/4 mile time. If your car runs below 14 seconds, certain equipment is needed. Below 12 seconds there's more, and below 10 seconds even more etc. You're allowed to go below a level ONCE. After you do, your car is off the track until it (and any PPE for you) is upgraded.

The board, with input from the membership, should be able to set a reasonable "best lap" for each track that forces the car into the SP or P class preparations.

This could be enforced by having TT results available at tech, although I should hope participants come clean and do the right thing on their own once they hit the mark. For cars that run day 1 only, we'll have to come up with something else, but I think we can find a way.

I agree we need to be considerate of students, we don't want to turn them away early before they get a chance to get hooked. However, the lap time we pick won't be reached by most students until they are signed off, I would hope.

I agree up to a point with Greg, being fairly Libertarian on these matters myself. However, if your lack of interest in reasonable accomodations for your own safety results in track incidents that end up with club's insurance rates doubling or worse, we're all the losers. For example, say the state has no right to force you to wear a helmet when motorcycling. Ok, but, if you bounce your squash off the road and end up drooling in a corner the rest of your life, do you expect the state to pick up that tab for your care?

I also understand people don't want to reduce the street comfort or eventual resale value of their expensive cars. You've decided you're willing to risk that valuable asset at high speeds on a track. Isn't your health and safety worth even more?

[jlwhorf]

If we require roll bar is ss and st cars, I feel will be creeping into being competition only club due to the fact that there will be only few class that someone can run an unprepared car. Also, mandating safety equipment for cars that cross a lap time boundry is a subjective because people with the same car will require added safety equip and others may not. In drag racing, 10 or 12 second car will run those time with pretty much any driver. For what we do, driving abilty can be a shift of several seconds.
But we do have to concider the fact that showroom cars of today can be much faster than prepared cars of yesterday. So in my mind there is no easy answer. I have always had a prepared car due to the fact that when I entered my first com event in 97, I was sent home because I did not roll over protection and harnesses in a street driven car. I reapeared in 2000 with the same car caged.

Jonathan
900 Monte Carlo PA

[jlwhorf]

If we require roll bar is ss and st cars, I feel will be creeping into being competition only club due to the fact that there will be only few class that someone can run an unprepared car. Also, mandating safety equipment for cars that cross a lap time boundry is a subjective because people with the same car will require added safety equip and others may not. In drag racing, 10 or 12 second car will run those time with pretty much any driver. For what we do, driving abilty can be a shift of several seconds.
But we do have to concider the fact that showroom cars of today can be much faster than prepared cars of yesterday. So in my mind there is no easy answer. I have always had a prepared car due to the fact that when I entered my first com event in 97, I was sent home because I did not roll over protection and harnesses in a street driven car. I reapeared in 2000 with the same car caged.

Jonathan
900 Monte Carlo PA

[cfossum]

Don't do it.
Additional safety equipment is recommended, but should not be required in SS or ST.
Yes, in stock form cars are getting faster, and I believe safer.
-Carl

[Dave_G]

Do we have any hillclimbers here? This issue has been debated by NEHA for their hillclimb events, only in their case the issue was full cages, not just roll bars. After much debate, they came up with breakout times for each hill. Above a breakout time, unprepared cars don't need to be caged. As soon as a driver sets a time below the breakout time, that driver can no longer run that car without a cage.

I'm not suggesting we do the same thing, but just wanted to point out that this idea is already being implemented elsewhere.

[boltonite]

Nate, don't worry, be happy! Those cars are safer than older cars w/ bolt-in roll bars and cages, imo. Most "stock" cars have built-in head and neck protection (airbags), and H&N injuries - the ones to be scared of - can occur at less-than-scary speeds.

Preventing serious injury has less to do about absolute speed than it does w/ car prep and driver prep. I'd much rather see a rule that says if you do something stupid there will be a penalty commensurate w/ the infraction (in the case of LRP, that works out to $25 a minute). Just kidding, sort of.

FF