Season Pros: Need Your Advice

[enjoythemusic]

Am stuck between options and desire opinions from the seasoned guys:

Option A) Take the Ferrari 308 and get the engine rebuild including higher compression pistons, possible bigger bore, hotter cams, new full engine management system... and supercharging. This would take her from 2900 lbs wet/driver to about 3100 lbs. From 180HP/165TQ to about 350HP/340TQ (rear wheels). Mods will be done with RELIABILITY in mind versus getting the last n'th of power. Already have uprated cooling, better clutch/flywheel, better oil system, modded suspension, etc installed.

Maintaining the above is the usual <cough> Ferrari pricing.


Option B) Forget saloon cars and go open wheel. Sadly, only have about $15k, maybe $20k max. Perhaps it is time to realize open wheel with less weight and higher g-force handling is the way to go. Problem is, in my price range it seems 10+ year old cars like VanD's, old Formula Fords and such... which are good cars mind you but 10+ years of someone else's abuse and ??? history. Usually these used cars come with decent spares it seems. Am clueless about open wheel racers so any help there is appreciated.

Maintaining the above is probably A LOT cheaper than a Ferrari.

Please, let us be adults so M3 and Miata guys please do not suggest those alternatives. A most humble thanks.

[Don P]

Steve -

Every month in the SCCA Sports Car magazine are dozens of open wheelers for sale. All (well most all) with log books. If you're not a member of SCCA -- join, there are many benefits.

Best,

Don

[enjoythemusic]

Many thanks Don, i have the Skippy recommendation letter so guess i should go to a Dr. to get the checkup and join. Will see what SCCA online has for classifieds.

Are there certain cars i should look for (models, years, setups)? Of course i like the idea of a car with adjuatable aero, but those seem to be out of my price range.

[Crusin]

This would take her from 2900 lbs wet/driver to about 3100 lbs. From 180HP/165TQ to about 350HP/340TQ (rear wheels). Mods will be done with RELIABILITY in mind versus getting the last n'th of power.

Not really sure about a Ferrari, but on most cars, if you double the HP and Torque, then RELIABILITY is an issue. Even if the engine components can handle the extra power, you are now putting extra stress on the rest of the drive train and brakes. Also, depending on the actual mods, engine driveability can also suffer.

:tweety:

[enjoythemusic]

Not really sure about a Ferrari, but on most cars, if you double the HP and Torque, then RELIABILITY is an issue. Even if the engine components can handle the extra power, you are now putting extra stress on the rest of the drive train and brakes. Also, depending on the actual mods, engine driveability can also suffer.

Crusin, many thanks and you have indeed hit upon a spot i already researched. There are a few guys putting fdown 500+ HP and other with 400+ for a few years... but i do not want THAT much power so a lowish 350TQ (about 6 lbs of boost) is fine. The tranny handles 500TQ no problems. The stock clutch won;t, though we just uprated to lightweight fly and Quartermaster metal 2-disc setup so she is fine. The brakes are already uprated, engineering/manufactured done by the same guy who worked for Brembo for a long time and headed up the project for the Ferrari 308 package. Cooling is already uprated and fine. Only thing the 308 is known for is the rear stub axle MIGHT break if they are of questionable condition when using Hoosiers, though we redid those when we redid them+CV boot+bearing+etc last month.

You do make a great point and have considered that angle. Have been piecemealing upgrades on the car for reliability over the years, and probably why after 25+ track days in 2006 i have had <knocking on wood> zero failures other than a coolant hose crack at the connection that was easy to repair in the pits <knocking on wood>.

FYI: ran her very hard for around 4+ hours of actual tarmac time at NHIS during open track day in October (ambient was around 65F to 70F, so not a cold day). Zero issues.

My engineers tell me we only need to uprate the water pump as far as other bits (non-engine) goes. Will probably add rear brake cooling, she already has front cooling though will decide after a few sessions and see what the Alcon temp indicators tell me.

Thanks for taking the time to read all the above as pro opinions are VERY MUCH appreciated and am trying to supply as much data as possible so you know what has been considered, done, and if i have forgotten anything PLEASE PLEASE feel free to smack me upside my head (does a head have an 'upside' ).

As for driveability, this is why we are going down to a low 350TQ or so versus winding her up to 425+. The engineers realize i still do want SOME street ability for the car, so new cams grind will have an eye towards this versus being nearly 'dead' so to speak until 5k. We will aim them for lower rpm to keep some resemblance of reality for street use... but yes she will not be like a stock super easy casual drive around the block for a <lame> shine n' show event. Heck, the new lightweight clutch and fly already makes 1st gear from a dead stop a bit more interesting, but do-able even when going up a hill from a dead stop without too much trouble.

Still, have been looking at VanD's as such and it seems great. You know, that lightweight open wheel...

ALL help is ALWAYS appreciated!!!

[gread]

Steve, As someone running a track vehicle with more than 400 rwhp, I can assure you you're event costs will increase. I have done the street car to track car route including the addition of a supercharger. It's very pricey and full of road bumps. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I would have definitely purchased a used race car from someone. There are always people getting out of racing either to change classes or pursue other hobbies and good cars become available at bargain prices. I am sure others out there will tell you the same thing...buy an already built car. Bruce Allen might know some people with open wheel cars for sale. I thought of going the open wheel route, I just have too much dough in my current ride.

[enjoythemusic]

...I have done the street car to track car route including the addition of a supercharger. It's very pricey and full of road bumps. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I would have definitely purchased a used race car from someone....I thought of going the open wheel route, I just have too much dough in my current ride.

Many thanks, the Voice of Experience and reality. Hopefully Bruce or others can help me choose a car if open wheel is decided. Am sure there are guys out there who are right now looking to sell their cars to prep for new series for 2007. Have been looking at various classifieds online and will keep looking today. Seems the real ballpark is $20k for a very well sorted relative new (10 year old) car... about $5k more than i had hoped.

Just curious as to the relative costs of operation. Fluids and tires aside, what about tranny and engine rebuild/servicing/upkeep?

[TTA89]

Ask anyone that has rebuilt and changed the factory config of an engine how well its worked out for them. Most of the time the "Better than factory parts" last about 1/100th as long and you run into all kinds of driveability issues.

Thats not including adding forced induction to a N/A motor. You couldn't pay me enough to take that route. I have watched many do it and all of them have since spent more time working on the car than running it.

With a blower your bound to run into heating problems. My 03 Cobra (Factory Supercharged) was hard enough to keep the temps down. Its not fun running with the heat on full blast in 80+ degree weather.

I think the 3rd strike against the idea is the fact that its a Ferrari. Unless you have a dump truck full of money I think your crazy.

[enjoythemusic]

...I think the 3rd strike against the idea is the fact that its a Ferrari. Unless you have a dump truck full of money I think your crazy.

Have been accused of many things, and crazy is usually not one of them. Well, first hurdles are clear as wife agrees it is time to retire the Ferrari as a track car and get a VanD (unless they won't allow it at the race event and then the Fcar will be for backup.. not THAT is crazy to say a Ferrari is a backup car ). Have an appt tomorrow to look at a few cars and also e-mailed Bruce A and hope he can help me sort out a few bits.

Agreed, throwing any more (massive) good money into the Fcar is crazy. Besides, at least with a spec open wheel racer there is something financially i can always get back out of it and cost to maintain is MUCH less.

Many thanks and look like in 2007 COMSCC there will be another VanD on the grid so to speak. Besides, with specifications like 0 to 60mph at well under 4 seconds, 60 to 0 stop in about 100 feet and pulling nearly 2Gs for those beloved twisties seems like the way to go. Also see why one of my instructors (SCCA national champ) said even his really tweaked Porsche was "Ok for a saloon car, but a real track car is leagues better."

It is all beginning to make sense. Now if i could only turn back the clock about 16 months and get back the $$$$$ in tweak parts that is in that red thing in the driveway. MANY thanks everyone... including my wife. She stands with me even when i do some crazy things

[brucesallen]

In addition to our discussion on the phone today, check out THE forum for all formula cars:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/
many used cars here too.

[enjoythemusic]

In addition to our discussion on the phone today, check out THE forum for all formula cars:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/
many used cars here too.

Bruce,

MANY thanks for taking time to chat with me on the phone today. Your knowledge, advice, and experience are very much appreicated. Will check out the site and will see our mutual friend tomorrow.

[StephanAlfa]

Another Italian macchina to support the cause is ALWAYS Welcomed.
Getting tired of seeing "fake Alfas" (a.k.a. Miatas) on track all day ...
I know, I know ... som,e will claim the desing is after Lotus Elan, but you are forgetting that the Italian designer who worked at Lotus previously came from Bertone who designed the Alfa Giulieta concept (which the Miata took the design from) and eventually lost the bid to Pininfarina that gave the Giuleta.
So folks BOW to the Italians when they pass you by ... or not...
Cheers
Stephan

[JackFFR1846]

Steven,

I spent some time with a 308 owner early this year at Lime Rock (he was my student). He did talk about most everything needed to make the car handle well was a custom made one-off at big $$. The quote I remember is that it was set up as the best $30k car that $60k could buy.

It was quite nicely set up, but STi's still had the advantage.

I know nothing about open wheel stuff but lightness = faster. The added benefit is that lightness = less wear on stuff. How about a supercharged or turbocharged 1st gen Miata with full suspension work? Run P/B and strip out 1000 pounds out of the thing.

Good luck with your racing habbit. I'm sure there's a way to cure it.....I just don't know what that might be.

jack

[Crusin]

Good luck with your racing habbit. I'm sure there's a way to cure it.....I just don't know what that might be.jack

Nor is he looking for a cure...

[enjoythemusic]

Another Italian macchina to support the cause is ALWAYS Welcomed. So folks BOW to the Italians when they pass you by ... or not...

Stephan, many thanks. Reality is a bear and WRXs are eating me alive as are M3s. Unless some serious funds are dumped into the 308 it will be a great 80's car... and stuck with 80's technology. It brings me great joy driving her on the track and glad many guys at various events love seeing her being taken to task. Of course they do not have to pay for upkeep. My desire is to enhance my ability in various areas and hold costs at a reasonable level. Have you ever heard the words Ferrari and 'reasonable cost' EVER in the same sentence when it comes to modifications or upkeep?

Yes, i have a lot to learn driving-wise and am probably getting only 80 percent out of the 308 (being humble here), but road cars have inherent limitations in various aspects. 2006 was great and enjoyed the many tracks days, yet a street legal road car for heavy track use (IMO) is a compromise.

I spent some time with a 308 owner early this year at Lime Rock (he was my student). He did talk about most everything needed to make the car handle well was a custom made one-off at big $$. The quote I remember is that it was set up as the best $30k car that $60k could buy.
It was quite nicely set up, but STi's still had the advantage.

Does he want to buy a used 308 that is track prepped Just joking, the 308 is not and never will be for sale.

Yes indeed it only takes HUGE sums of money to make a 308 go faster and handle better. Have the safety and mega-adjustable handing part down, the faster engine bits are not in her. Felt that safety/reliability came first, suspension/brakes second... and the last thing would be more HP/TQ. This seemed a safe way to go as adding go without adding stopping power (as some guys do) seems crazy stupid. Of course the suspension upgrades made a HUGE difference, but she is still 2900 lbs wet with driver and only 180HP/165TQ.

And yes STi's will still eat a relatively stock 308 for breakfast. Maybe not so much in heavy twisties, though they can accelerate out of corners faster and in the straights. During track rain days my car actually faired quite well, but chalk that up to tires and the way i change the car's suspension/brake setup. Seems that rain is a good equalizer... but not a 'cure.'

I know nothing about open wheel stuff but lightness = faster. The added benefit is that lightness = less wear on stuff. How about a supercharged or turbocharged 1st gen Miata with full suspension work? Run P/B and strip out 1000 pounds out of the thing.

(Sigh) Then i am kinda where i am now per se. For me, going open wheel as another learning curve to climb. There are more variables (gear ratios, mechanical balance, aero, etc.) plus can work on the car as access is relatively easy. Don't ask about the (literal) many blood sacrifies that red Italian cars demands. Wife and i talked last night and we decided a purpose-built large garage on our property will be constructed in early 2007 for the purpose of my car habit. Also, the engineer in me sees many more opportunities in open wheel... and at reasonable cost versus Italian Parts Tax.

Good luck with your racing habit. I'm sure there's a way to cure it.....I just don't know what that might be.

A most humble thanks and think what you mean is not a cure, it is more of finding a way to fulfil my on track desires in a calculated safe manner. Many thanks and as always...