"I've been refused when I've been late with them. COM doesn't do that, nor does BMW."
Actually COMSCC does that - this year there have been wait lists for Students, Licensed and/or Instructors at some events. Sometimes we are not able to accommodate all members on the wait list - no matter what their driver status.
$380 for NHIS??????
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turtlevette
- Rookie Racer
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2003 10:07 pm
- Location: marshfield, MA
seems i rememeber the guys on the corvette forum saying some track in Nova Scotia was really cheap. Something like $1200 a day Canadian dollars.
http://www.atlanticmotorsportpark.com/index.php
If we could go to a couple of cheap away events maybe it wouldn't break the bank.
Here's another cheapie http://www.shannonville.com/ mentioned in a thread earlier this year.
http://www.atlanticmotorsportpark.com/index.php
If we could go to a couple of cheap away events maybe it wouldn't break the bank.
Here's another cheapie http://www.shannonville.com/ mentioned in a thread earlier this year.
I'm also one of those for whom all events are 'away' events. LRP might be closer physically, yet it still takes almost two hours to get there due to the nature of the roads. I have encouraged COM to look at other tracks, even further away, as a means of attracting interest. Yeah, VIR or Mid-Ohio are long tows - yet I think there's a fair amount of interest in maybe adding one 'really away' event a year - maybe in conjunction with another club, maybe not for points.
The first two years I belonged to the club I did not run any NHIS events as I felt the track wasn't 'fun'. I still prefer running pretty much anywhere rather than NHIS - even Shenandoah maybe because it's 'new'.
Now, I go to NHIS events as much to hang out with the COM crew as I do to drive it - also because I've been competing for a class championship. Yet it's still not the trophy that's important, it's the group of people.
I have no objection to instructors not paying track fees, as long as the ratio of instructors to students is reasonable. Obviously, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have ten instructors for only five students. Yet, even as a COM License holder, I often will ask an instructor for a ride or to ride along, even if it's around a car preparation issue rather than driving style.
Like RyanC, I have an interest in becoming an instructor at some point, and it has nothing to do with getting into events for free. I can't think of a better way to make me be more conscious of what I'm doing on the track than to have to impart that knowledge to another.
Lastly, there has been a lot of encouragement in this thread for members to come to Board meetings to make their opinions heard. Again, I find it impossible to make a four-hour round-trip ride in the middle of the week for a Board Meeting. I really liked the idea of having the Board Meeting as part of the banquet at events, which happened a few times in the past. I think this is a great club, I'd love to be more involved, yet I can't see that happening as I can't make monthly meetings. I'm well aware that other members live equally as far in other directions, it's been suggested to move meetings around occasionally, and I recognize that for most, Chelmsford is somewhat central.
Just my thoughts...
The first two years I belonged to the club I did not run any NHIS events as I felt the track wasn't 'fun'. I still prefer running pretty much anywhere rather than NHIS - even Shenandoah maybe because it's 'new'.
Now, I go to NHIS events as much to hang out with the COM crew as I do to drive it - also because I've been competing for a class championship. Yet it's still not the trophy that's important, it's the group of people.
I have no objection to instructors not paying track fees, as long as the ratio of instructors to students is reasonable. Obviously, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have ten instructors for only five students. Yet, even as a COM License holder, I often will ask an instructor for a ride or to ride along, even if it's around a car preparation issue rather than driving style.
Like RyanC, I have an interest in becoming an instructor at some point, and it has nothing to do with getting into events for free. I can't think of a better way to make me be more conscious of what I'm doing on the track than to have to impart that knowledge to another.
Lastly, there has been a lot of encouragement in this thread for members to come to Board meetings to make their opinions heard. Again, I find it impossible to make a four-hour round-trip ride in the middle of the week for a Board Meeting. I really liked the idea of having the Board Meeting as part of the banquet at events, which happened a few times in the past. I think this is a great club, I'd love to be more involved, yet I can't see that happening as I can't make monthly meetings. I'm well aware that other members live equally as far in other directions, it's been suggested to move meetings around occasionally, and I recognize that for most, Chelmsford is somewhat central.
Just my thoughts...
-Keith-
SPB116
SPB116
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johnb
I might be a little out of line here for only have attended 1-2 track events in the past 2 years and one of them, being a PCA event last Monday. It appears that PCA and BMW are begging for instructors. They also try to maintain a lower student/instructor ratio. The big question is....why are those clubs not filling up their non-instructor spots at NHIS? Is it a lack of marketing, cost of event, day of the week....I don't know. Is sounds like most clubs are upset with attendance or cost to participate. Is there any way that all the club presidents (PCA, COM, BMW, etc.) could get together and pull together some solutions. Maybe try to get a better deal with NHIS or insurance co's. Power in #'s. I know most of you will say NHIS doesn't care....take it or leave it. I am not so sure. Do the not care about SCCA either? If the other clubs crash, it won't bode well for COM.
Miss you all.
-John Brennan
Miss you all.
-John Brennan
Jack, I have asked Carl specifically about how to start the process and was told no more instructors were needed. Coming from instructor numero uno (and all around nice guy), what can *you* do for *me*? Besides advise me on the ways of the hirsute, of course. As far as I have seen, we have no published program for becoming an instructor, so I'm in the dark.JackFFR1846 wrote:RyanC wrote:I know of myself and at least two others, one who is a national instructor with the PCA, who would be more than happy to go through any instructor development program COM offers to fill any gap in having enough instructors for events. In response to past inquiries I've been told COM isn't looking for any more instructors, but I'd be happy to start from the bottom up to learn. Even if my use as an instructor wasn't needed but for one event a year, I'd still find use in going through the program and learning what seperates us little people from the Fossums and Tiers of the club. Maybe this should be a separate thread?...
Sally.....uh, I mean Ryan,
If you really WANT to become an instructor, I would encourage you to do so and will even help you. Talk to me, I can help. As you know, I am willing to jump in a car and just check you out for a session, if I possiblly can (and you were incapable of scaring me when you took me up on that). I've done this with a LOT of students. I also take students and other registered drivers in my own car during my session (for a 15% increase in total vehicle weight) to continue the teaching.....showing the line.
jack
Ryan,
that's where things get fishy. Chris T. is talking about situations where they need more instructors, and others say we don't need any more instructors.
This is a tricky subject because to my knowledge the board of directors is made up of almost exclusively- instructors. If you think they are going to vote in to raise their costs of track days you are dreaming.
I don't think instructors should have to pay- period.
It's free track fees because they give a great service. A track day for an instructor is VERY different from that of a student or a licensed driver. I sit under the easy-up eating ice cream sandwichs while Carl and the rest of the gang jump from car to car sweating their asses off in nomex.
I would personally love to see RyanC as an instructor. Someone with a ton of AWD experience and the lap times to back it up. If i could request an instructor, he'd be at the top of my list, right there with Carl, and Nate H.
-Paddy
that's where things get fishy. Chris T. is talking about situations where they need more instructors, and others say we don't need any more instructors.
This is a tricky subject because to my knowledge the board of directors is made up of almost exclusively- instructors. If you think they are going to vote in to raise their costs of track days you are dreaming.
I don't think instructors should have to pay- period.
It's free track fees because they give a great service. A track day for an instructor is VERY different from that of a student or a licensed driver. I sit under the easy-up eating ice cream sandwichs while Carl and the rest of the gang jump from car to car sweating their asses off in nomex.
I would personally love to see RyanC as an instructor. Someone with a ton of AWD experience and the lap times to back it up. If i could request an instructor, he'd be at the top of my list, right there with Carl, and Nate H.
-Paddy
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JackFFR1846
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:56 pm
- Location: Hopkinton, MA
RyanC wrote:Jack, I have asked Carl specifically about how to start the process and was told no more instructors were needed. Coming from instructor numero uno (and all around nice guy), what can *you* do for *me*? Besides advise me on the ways of the hirsute, of course. As far as I have seen, we have no published program for becoming an instructor, so I'm in the dark.
As you may have noticed, there is a LOT of crossover of instructors between clubs. White Mountain BMW has a formal, and fair training program. They also have their curriculum on their website.
I don't feel that there can ever be too many instructors for the "pool" of track clubs. Some of the other clubs (I won't name names) are not quite so friendly towards instructors and they have to beg last minute. There are also a number of companies who run private track schools for their employees which are very friendly.
I'd have no problem in the training aspect. If you'd like to get in a car to simulate this, I think it's a good idea. See me at the track. Especially the 1st session of the day. You instruct me and I'll help with teaching how to instruct. I model my style after the late Yale Rachlin, who was one of the better instructors I had, back in the olden days (we had flintstone cars and yes, R compound rock tires). Same goes for Keith.....although you might have to bribe me by delivering that old Camaro to my house.
jack
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brucesallen
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1468
- Joined: Tue May 06, 2003 9:56 am
- Location: NH
- Contact:
Board is not instructors
Paddy,
Only about half the Board is instructors.
ALL of the Board considers the well being of the Club first and foremost. Come to the meetings (like last night) and see.
Consider that in addition to helping assigned students all instructors respond to requests from licensed members for in car instruction--- especially at away tracks.
Only about half the Board is instructors.
ALL of the Board considers the well being of the Club first and foremost. Come to the meetings (like last night) and see.
Consider that in addition to helping assigned students all instructors respond to requests from licensed members for in car instruction--- especially at away tracks.
Bruce Allen
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
The Greased Shadow
"It's all about the fast lap"
The tone of some of the responses here seems to be quite negative. I was under the impression that instructors got the first day free and paid a lower rate for the TT day. With that being said and from someone who volunteered for a long time, and paid full boat for both days mind you I do not see what all the major complaints are about. I have been with the club for 5 years and have had a great time learned a ton and made some huge friends. In the spectrum of racing and the cost of doing this sport our club I personally think is more than resonable. It probably should be more in terms of dollars to participate. The instructors and this goes to all of the instructors I personally have a huge amount of respect for all of you. I t takes alot of guts to get into a car with someone you do not know who thinks they can do it all as I did when I went too my first event. Letting them have gratis days for the time they give to the students and to the club I do not have a problem with that.
Mike Campbell
Mike Campbell
I thought it would be cool to ask Mick to come to an SVTOA event last May at SP Shen as an instructor. The registration was free for instructors. He had two students, and there were four groups....two novice groups, an intermediate group and the advanced group. So he had one session to run, then one session to break, then two sessions with students, then immediately to his session again. It was in the high 80's low 90's all weekend.
The poor guy looked like he was going to pass out.
It is more than just the guts to get in a novice driven 500hp blower Mustang, but it is also that there is no time during the day for a real rest....some time to hydrate, and maybe get a look at one's own car for possible issues, before running out of time and getting back out there.
Should his track time have been free? Absolutely.
The poor guy looked like he was going to pass out.
It is more than just the guts to get in a novice driven 500hp blower Mustang, but it is also that there is no time during the day for a real rest....some time to hydrate, and maybe get a look at one's own car for possible issues, before running out of time and getting back out there.
Should his track time have been free? Absolutely.
Troy Velazquez
#5 T50
#5 T50
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stromer
The solution for the club at NHIS and likely next years events is to raise the prices. So all paying participants (non-instructors) are paying more this time than in prior events.
Now if the people who are voting for price increases won't have to pay the increases, where will this trend end?
At an event with 100 participants, and 30% being instrutors, we see the effect of the raise in prices similar to NHIS as an extra $3500 Now if all of the instructors paid for the time trial day ($180) there would be an increase of $5400. And even if the instructors paid just $120 for the second day the increase revenue would still be more than the rate increase for all of the other members has earned. That $120 is just 36% of what the rest of the drivers were paying, before the price increase (the $330 rate).
To sum it up: rates go back to $330, instructors pay 36% of this at $120 and the club sees an overall revenue increase higher than the rate increase at NHIS. Makes sense to me.
Of course the numbers would break down differently depending on the number of competitors and instructors, but from what I gathered 25-30% of the attendees are instructors. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now if the people who are voting for price increases won't have to pay the increases, where will this trend end?
At an event with 100 participants, and 30% being instrutors, we see the effect of the raise in prices similar to NHIS as an extra $3500 Now if all of the instructors paid for the time trial day ($180) there would be an increase of $5400. And even if the instructors paid just $120 for the second day the increase revenue would still be more than the rate increase for all of the other members has earned. That $120 is just 36% of what the rest of the drivers were paying, before the price increase (the $330 rate).
To sum it up: rates go back to $330, instructors pay 36% of this at $120 and the club sees an overall revenue increase higher than the rate increase at NHIS. Makes sense to me.
Of course the numbers would break down differently depending on the number of competitors and instructors, but from what I gathered 25-30% of the attendees are instructors. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I know that no matter what I say it will be read as biased so take this for what it's worth.
- You're making the assumption that if we charge instructors they will show up in the same numbers.
- At NHIS instrictors are assigned 2 students, so according to your numbers 90% of entrants would either be a student or instructor.
- You're making the assumption that if we charge instructors they will show up in the same numbers.
- At NHIS instrictors are assigned 2 students, so according to your numbers 90% of entrants would either be a student or instructor.
Last edited by Mick on Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
COM instructors are awesome. I've hopped for rides with them on both days, and it's always a blast.
Personally, I think if the club were not running out of money, this thread wouldn't even exist. However, if we have pared back on all expenses and we're still bleeding money and not generating new revenue, there are not very many choices.
It's either raise the costs for students / licensed drivers and/or start charging instructors a small fee for the second day, at least until the finances are healthy again.
Raj
Personally, I think if the club were not running out of money, this thread wouldn't even exist. However, if we have pared back on all expenses and we're still bleeding money and not generating new revenue, there are not very many choices.
It's either raise the costs for students / licensed drivers and/or start charging instructors a small fee for the second day, at least until the finances are healthy again.
Raj
#66 SuperSlowGT
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z
Silver 2004 Nissan 350Z
Raj, you are correct, there are not many choices to deal with the money situation, and the hard choices will be made as they are needed. Everyone needs to understand that the BOD did not raise the rate because that was the easiest thing to do. We do not take these things lightly, but it was the best choice for right now and had to be done.
The real issue here is how do we get more members to go to the away events? If we got 10-20 more people to show up regularly at more away events, then we do not have a problem at all. If attendence goes up, prices can go back down, it's that simple.
So, if driving on great tracks with loads of track time doesn't lure in the membership, then what else can we do? Personally I would give up 2 NHIS events to go to 1 Mosport, hands down, if I had to make a choice.
Gordon
The real issue here is how do we get more members to go to the away events? If we got 10-20 more people to show up regularly at more away events, then we do not have a problem at all. If attendence goes up, prices can go back down, it's that simple.
So, if driving on great tracks with loads of track time doesn't lure in the membership, then what else can we do? Personally I would give up 2 NHIS events to go to 1 Mosport, hands down, if I had to make a choice.
Gordon
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