FWIW, I have occassionally shown up at NHIS to instruct but not TT. I've known others who have driven both days EXCEPT for the TT, and I bet there are others who [would] come ONLY to run the TT day. So I see the TT as an event within an event. And for some, its an event within a TT championship series. I think it works well and provides a great source of competition to make the events more interesting for those who are into it.
FF
btw, BMWCCA does NOT charge instructors, nor does TrackMasters, SCCA, SCDA. The only club I'm aware of that does is the PCA.
$380 for NHIS??????
For what my input is worth, I'd much rather attend WGI than have nice food. A BBQ off the back of someone's truck sounds great to me.
Also, why not just give instructors a large discount instead of free ticket. Perhaps charge them $100/day. That cheap enough for most folks to not complain but may offset the losses we're seeing.
Also, why not just give instructors a large discount instead of free ticket. Perhaps charge them $100/day. That cheap enough for most folks to not complain but may offset the losses we're seeing.
There was a time when we charged the instructors. We then found it increasingly difficult to get enough instructors to show up at events like NHIS that we would turn away a large number of students. In keeping with BMW, Trackmasters, SCDA and others who did not charge for instructors and in some cases even give free lunch and T-shirts, we had to at least offer free track time in return for their services. I was chief instructor for three years and had a great bunch of instructors to work with, many who gave up their free track time to help students. Remember we were all students once. I hope no one thinks that instructors are just a bunch of ego driven people who are just looking for a free ride. I firmly believe that most instructors (like myself) just love the sport and find it rewarding to help new drivers get track experience.
We do put alot (our Lives) on the line, Yes accidents are few (thank god) but they do happen and people get hurt. I know people with the scars to prove it, and even one death that I just heard about.
I think there is merit to maybe charging something for TT day, but I hope it doesn't discourage instructors from coming to school day also. It's a balancing act. If we don't have the instructors we can't get new students and in turn new licensed members. I have myself and have asked other instructors to instruct on TT day if someone was looking for help.
COMSCC is a great club with lots of history and a good reputation for quality instruction. Note: Our licenses are excepted by most other clubs without question.
If we give up our away events and run just NHIS I think the club would be giving up alot of what many people have worked hard to acheive. Remember we are one of very few clubs to run at all these great tracks and have TT's at them not just schools or lapping days.
I will shut up now and I hope that if people feel strongly about this that they come to the Board Meetings at the Ground Round in Chelmsford the third wednesday of each month and let your thoughts be heard, after all it is your club. I'll be there
We do put alot (our Lives) on the line, Yes accidents are few (thank god) but they do happen and people get hurt. I know people with the scars to prove it, and even one death that I just heard about.
I think there is merit to maybe charging something for TT day, but I hope it doesn't discourage instructors from coming to school day also. It's a balancing act. If we don't have the instructors we can't get new students and in turn new licensed members. I have myself and have asked other instructors to instruct on TT day if someone was looking for help.
COMSCC is a great club with lots of history and a good reputation for quality instruction. Note: Our licenses are excepted by most other clubs without question.
If we give up our away events and run just NHIS I think the club would be giving up alot of what many people have worked hard to acheive. Remember we are one of very few clubs to run at all these great tracks and have TT's at them not just schools or lapping days.
I will shut up now and I hope that if people feel strongly about this that they come to the Board Meetings at the Ground Round in Chelmsford the third wednesday of each month and let your thoughts be heard, after all it is your club. I'll be there
Hindsight being 20/20, the rates should have changed LAST year. We are now in catch-up mode as the club's cash reserve has been depleted beyond expectation. A couple years ago, when the club had a cash surplus, it was decided to "drain the swamp". As a result, rates for event fees have not increased as sharply as overall expenses. Fast forward to today, and our pool of cash is looking more like a puddle.
In this time, all members have enjoyed affordable rates and free banquets. The banquet expenses had increased to the point where they were eating up 50% of the profit from our events at NHIS. The BOD had to make the decision to start charging for dinners - something that has been resisted in the past. The BOD is aware of the importance of the banquet/camaraderie aspect of COM, which is the reason why banquets have been "free" up until now. Scott's post is exactly the reason why banquets have been included with entry fees in the past. It is unfortunate that some members will (understandably) choose to skip the banquets. Hopefully we'll be able to get back to having the club subsidize at least a larger portion of the banquets sometime soon. In the mean time, we are looking at more inexpensive alternatives, such as cookouts at the track/infield.
COM is a Driver's Education/Time Trial club, and in my opinion, visiting the away tracks is a big part of the experience. Tracks like Mosport, Mt Tremblant, The Glen, & Summit offer experiences that NHIS can only dream about. Those of us who are lucky enough to be able to travel to these events know what it is like to drive/'race' on a real road course.
Perhaps the biggest failure of the BOD has been the ability to attract members to the away events, but we've been trying harder than ever this year. Hopefully more members will 'drink the Kool-Aid' and away events will become better attended. I've lost track of the amount of threads started here to entice members to attend an away event. As someone mentioned above, we've even tried to attract members that are local to the tracks we visit in Canada, NY, WV, etc. With better attendance at the away events, several of these tracks have the potential to be more 'profitable' than NHIS, as rental rates are considerably cheaper (such as Mosport!), although some track fees are ridiculously more expensive (Watkins Glen, I'm talking about you!).
And so there it is. Gary asked about economics classes, and there is the one they teach on the first day: supply and demand. Supply at NHIS is low, demand is high. Supply at away events is high, demand is low. The club is not-for-profit, but that does not mean it can survive constant losses.
Our schedule this year has not helped much either. The loss of the Glen and main track at Summit have also not helped.
While it is true that NHIS makes a profit and most away events break-even at best, to say that NHIS has been subsidizing away events is a bit inaccurate. I believe the cash savings that COM had built up has been carrying a larger portion of these events than any "profit" from NHIS has.
With regard to instructor "free rides", there are more than one arguement for both sides. Those that have done the work and had the responsibility over the years can point out the amount of time and dedication involved. They can also point out that other clubs treat their instructors 'better', by providing free lunches, goodies, etc. On the other hand, the club is not in a position to be lax on spending & income. Somewhere between the two arguements should be an answer that all sides can at least find agreeable.
From what I've seen, instructors aren't trying to milk the system, so please give them the benefit of a doubt and a little respect. Several instructors are known for showing up to events without their cars. They instruct and help on both days without even driving themselves. The instructors I know are often busy helping out students as well as licensed drivers - on both days. That is just one more great thing about COM, the instruction doesn't stop after you are licensed.
Cheers,
Will
In this time, all members have enjoyed affordable rates and free banquets. The banquet expenses had increased to the point where they were eating up 50% of the profit from our events at NHIS. The BOD had to make the decision to start charging for dinners - something that has been resisted in the past. The BOD is aware of the importance of the banquet/camaraderie aspect of COM, which is the reason why banquets have been "free" up until now. Scott's post is exactly the reason why banquets have been included with entry fees in the past. It is unfortunate that some members will (understandably) choose to skip the banquets. Hopefully we'll be able to get back to having the club subsidize at least a larger portion of the banquets sometime soon. In the mean time, we are looking at more inexpensive alternatives, such as cookouts at the track/infield.
COM is a Driver's Education/Time Trial club, and in my opinion, visiting the away tracks is a big part of the experience. Tracks like Mosport, Mt Tremblant, The Glen, & Summit offer experiences that NHIS can only dream about. Those of us who are lucky enough to be able to travel to these events know what it is like to drive/'race' on a real road course.
Perhaps the biggest failure of the BOD has been the ability to attract members to the away events, but we've been trying harder than ever this year. Hopefully more members will 'drink the Kool-Aid' and away events will become better attended. I've lost track of the amount of threads started here to entice members to attend an away event. As someone mentioned above, we've even tried to attract members that are local to the tracks we visit in Canada, NY, WV, etc. With better attendance at the away events, several of these tracks have the potential to be more 'profitable' than NHIS, as rental rates are considerably cheaper (such as Mosport!), although some track fees are ridiculously more expensive (Watkins Glen, I'm talking about you!).
And so there it is. Gary asked about economics classes, and there is the one they teach on the first day: supply and demand. Supply at NHIS is low, demand is high. Supply at away events is high, demand is low. The club is not-for-profit, but that does not mean it can survive constant losses.
Our schedule this year has not helped much either. The loss of the Glen and main track at Summit have also not helped.
While it is true that NHIS makes a profit and most away events break-even at best, to say that NHIS has been subsidizing away events is a bit inaccurate. I believe the cash savings that COM had built up has been carrying a larger portion of these events than any "profit" from NHIS has.
With regard to instructor "free rides", there are more than one arguement for both sides. Those that have done the work and had the responsibility over the years can point out the amount of time and dedication involved. They can also point out that other clubs treat their instructors 'better', by providing free lunches, goodies, etc. On the other hand, the club is not in a position to be lax on spending & income. Somewhere between the two arguements should be an answer that all sides can at least find agreeable.
From what I've seen, instructors aren't trying to milk the system, so please give them the benefit of a doubt and a little respect. Several instructors are known for showing up to events without their cars. They instruct and help on both days without even driving themselves. The instructors I know are often busy helping out students as well as licensed drivers - on both days. That is just one more great thing about COM, the instruction doesn't stop after you are licensed.
Cheers,
Will
96 Miata #72 SC
PRA 4
PRA 4
The Audi club charges their instructors an anual fee of $100-. Maybe we should have a sliding scale . Instructors free or small anual charge, licensed drivers the regular fee and students a slightly higher fee to help offset the cost of the instructor.
It would also be nice for people like me who don't want to travel 10 to 12 hours , to try to get back a 4th NHIS. Plus Line Rock had one free day this past year-- maybe we could see about getting just a day at LRP with hopes of expanding to a two day event in the future.
It would also be nice for people like me who don't want to travel 10 to 12 hours , to try to get back a 4th NHIS. Plus Line Rock had one free day this past year-- maybe we could see about getting just a day at LRP with hopes of expanding to a two day event in the future.
Dan D'Arcy
Lotus Exige Cup Car #069 SU
Lotus Elise #310 SD
Chevron B64 Formula SU
http://www.allpowersales.com/
Lotus Exige Cup Car #069 SU
Lotus Elise #310 SD
Chevron B64 Formula SU
http://www.allpowersales.com/
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fact5racer
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:52 pm
first of all, I totally agree to end the banquets to save money, I come to events to drive, not for a meal. Personally I would rather bring a grill and cookout in the pits and pit talk on the tailgate of my truck with fellow drivers than get dressed up and go out to a restaurant and worry about having too much to drink (2 drinks in my case) and getting pulled over. Those elaborate dinners at the glen were fiscally wrong, but then again that's just my opinion. But what really got my blood boiling was when I was told a few weeks ago that the club had 11 instructors signed up for MoSport but had only 1 student enrolled. Was this true? I hope that was not really the case. I don't want to beat up on instructors but what is the clubs policy for free track time for instructors if there are more instructors than students?
And instructors are not the only ones that assume risks. I realized that I was crazy to be chief of tech when the only benefit was possibly sitting in court having some lawyer ask me: "Isn't it true Mr Cheney that you personally inspected the car and the fact that the right front tire came off during this event causing personal injury to my client makes YOU responsible for his injury and financial losses"?
Sure I haven't been at a COM event this year and many are probably asking "Why the hell is this guy even complaining, he doesn't even show up anyways"! Well, those close to me know that I have been investing over $70,000 into a car for next season and COM is one of the few places where I can run it. But I am one of those guys that always look at the BIG picture and just ask for a fair playing field for all. Costs are going up in all directions while the economy slowly creeps in the the other direction and some future fiscal planning including belt tightening is in order. But then again, that's just my opinion and many consider me an idiot
And instructors are not the only ones that assume risks. I realized that I was crazy to be chief of tech when the only benefit was possibly sitting in court having some lawyer ask me: "Isn't it true Mr Cheney that you personally inspected the car and the fact that the right front tire came off during this event causing personal injury to my client makes YOU responsible for his injury and financial losses"?
Sure I haven't been at a COM event this year and many are probably asking "Why the hell is this guy even complaining, he doesn't even show up anyways"! Well, those close to me know that I have been investing over $70,000 into a car for next season and COM is one of the few places where I can run it. But I am one of those guys that always look at the BIG picture and just ask for a fair playing field for all. Costs are going up in all directions while the economy slowly creeps in the the other direction and some future fiscal planning including belt tightening is in order. But then again, that's just my opinion and many consider me an idiot
It seems to be a great discussion so far.
I like the idea of the sliding scale. Helps with the financial burden of having the instructors while rewarding those who sacrifice to help out new members.
Some more input on income streams I'm sure would be appreciated by the BoD.
I don't think an increase in fees overall is out of line. The Boston BMWCCA event was recently $425 for 2 days with no meal but a free shirt. Still pricier than the $380 being charged for the next NHIS event and the people are not as nice.
The away track experience is a definite draw to the club for those expanding from the "classroom" feel of the NHIS COM experience. It would be a shame to see away dates diminished for fiscal reasons. Perhaps the body of members can brainstorm new ways to enticing people to join us at different tracks.
I like the idea of the sliding scale. Helps with the financial burden of having the instructors while rewarding those who sacrifice to help out new members.
Some more input on income streams I'm sure would be appreciated by the BoD.
I don't think an increase in fees overall is out of line. The Boston BMWCCA event was recently $425 for 2 days with no meal but a free shirt. Still pricier than the $380 being charged for the next NHIS event and the people are not as nice.
The away track experience is a definite draw to the club for those expanding from the "classroom" feel of the NHIS COM experience. It would be a shame to see away dates diminished for fiscal reasons. Perhaps the body of members can brainstorm new ways to enticing people to join us at different tracks.
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fact5racer
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:52 pm
)
Allow me to jump into the discussion here with a COM newbie's perspective. I've so far attended two COM events (Mosport and Tremblant), and have not yet been to NHIS. For me in the boonies of Vermont, every track is an "away" event. NHIS is closest at about 3 hours, but Tremblant and Lime Rock are not much further.gread wrote:The away track experience is a definite draw to the club for those expanding from the "classroom" feel of the NHIS COM experience. It would be a shame to see away dates diminished for fiscal reasons. Perhaps the body of members can brainstorm new ways to enticing people to join us at different tracks.
My first COM event was Mosport, and it was absolutely the high point of my summer. I had originally signed up for NHIS, but changed my registration to Mosport. (Budget concerns prevented me from doing both.)
What got this newbie to Mosport instead of NHIS? Three things:
1. The usual email plea for more registrants, promising oodles of track time. (A promise which was fulfilled in spades.)
2. The promise of a second day of instruction for students who didn't get signed off on Day 1. (As it happened, all the students were signed off, so this wasn't an issue. But the intention was very welcome.)
3. The chance to drive on one of the premier circuits in the history of North American road racing.
I'm about as far from an instructor as it's possible to get, and I LOVE the "away" (i.e. non-NHIS) events. I'm open to all sorts of suggestions for keeping them on the calendar, but I would be far less likely to keep my new COM membership if it was "all NHIS all the time." (I have nothing against NHIS, and I am planning on a COM event there next year.)
But please, don't let anybody have the mistaken impression that the far-away tracks are only for instructors. If my experience is anything close to typical, nothing could be farther from the truth.
Dave
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Mark Swinehart
- Speed Racer
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Actually there has only been one event (Mosport-1) this year where there were more Instructors than Students (14 vs. 9).
This year after five events we are averaging 25% more Students than Instructors registered for each DE day. By the way, if an Instructor decides to only participate on the Time Trial day they of course pay the full appropriate fee.
This year after five events we are averaging 25% more Students than Instructors registered for each DE day. By the way, if an Instructor decides to only participate on the Time Trial day they of course pay the full appropriate fee.
For events that have more students than instructors, does that mean some students get short shrift, or does it mean that some instructors have more than one student?
Do instructors who don't have any students at all, such as the 5 at Mosport, pay for the days they run, DE or TT? I'm not sure by your respose Mark, as that sounds like they would only have to pay if they had no student and only ran the TT.
I know of myself and at least two others, one who is a national instructor with the PCA, who would be more than happy to go through any instructor development program COM offers to fill any gap in having enough instructors for events. In response to past inquiries I've been told COM isn't looking for any more instructors, but I'd be happy to start from the bottom up to learn. Even if my use as an instructor wasn't needed but for one event a year, I'd still find use in going through the program and learning what seperates us little people from the Fossums and Tiers of the club. Maybe this should be a separate thread?...
Anyhow, I hope nobody misinterprets my posts as being negative towards our instructors at all, as that is clearly not my intent. I have a lot of respect for not only the skills of those who are willing to share their knowledge, but the guts to get into a car with someone they might not know (or worse yet, strap into a car with some knucklehead who likes to drift their car thru the turns!). I just think that if the club is struggling for money so drastically, and we are spending money on dinners at least some folks don't care about, and subsidizing folks on days they aren't instructing, we have to do something better than raise fees for the 'rest of us'.
Ryan
#239 STGT
the 'other' blue STi
Do instructors who don't have any students at all, such as the 5 at Mosport, pay for the days they run, DE or TT? I'm not sure by your respose Mark, as that sounds like they would only have to pay if they had no student and only ran the TT.
I know of myself and at least two others, one who is a national instructor with the PCA, who would be more than happy to go through any instructor development program COM offers to fill any gap in having enough instructors for events. In response to past inquiries I've been told COM isn't looking for any more instructors, but I'd be happy to start from the bottom up to learn. Even if my use as an instructor wasn't needed but for one event a year, I'd still find use in going through the program and learning what seperates us little people from the Fossums and Tiers of the club. Maybe this should be a separate thread?...
Anyhow, I hope nobody misinterprets my posts as being negative towards our instructors at all, as that is clearly not my intent. I have a lot of respect for not only the skills of those who are willing to share their knowledge, but the guts to get into a car with someone they might not know (or worse yet, strap into a car with some knucklehead who likes to drift their car thru the turns!). I just think that if the club is struggling for money so drastically, and we are spending money on dinners at least some folks don't care about, and subsidizing folks on days they aren't instructing, we have to do something better than raise fees for the 'rest of us'.
Ryan
#239 STGT
the 'other' blue STi
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MiataSteve
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:39 pm
I was a bit was shocked at the price increase when I registered. I assumed it was for good reason, and I believe it is. But, notification before registration opened with an explanation as to the reasons and duration of the price hike could have smoothed things over to some extent.
Circumstances have caused me not to do the "Away" events this year. I have done events at Lime Rock and paid as much as $240/day with another club. This club charges a higher rate for its LRP event than their events at Pocono. This club has run events with another club when turn out is expected to be low.
Two ideas we might adopt?
Circumstances have caused me not to do the "Away" events this year. I have done events at Lime Rock and paid as much as $240/day with another club. This club charges a higher rate for its LRP event than their events at Pocono. This club has run events with another club when turn out is expected to be low.
Two ideas we might adopt?
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JackFFR1846
- Speed Setter
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:56 pm
- Location: Hopkinton, MA
RyanC wrote:I know of myself and at least two others, one who is a national instructor with the PCA, who would be more than happy to go through any instructor development program COM offers to fill any gap in having enough instructors for events. In response to past inquiries I've been told COM isn't looking for any more instructors, but I'd be happy to start from the bottom up to learn. Even if my use as an instructor wasn't needed but for one event a year, I'd still find use in going through the program and learning what seperates us little people from the Fossums and Tiers of the club. Maybe this should be a separate thread?...
Sally.....uh, I mean Ryan,
If you really WANT to become an instructor, I would encourage you to do so and will even help you. Talk to me, I can help. As you know, I am willing to jump in a car and just check you out for a session, if I possiblly can (and you were incapable of scaring me when you took me up on that). I've done this with a LOT of students. I also take students and other registered drivers in my own car during my session (for a 15% increase in total vehicle weight) to continue the teaching.....showing the line.
There are a lot of ideas and comments in this thread. It's all come out because of a money issue that's suddenly come up. As an instructor (who for some unknown reason likes doing this), let me point out a few things.
Chris talks about some years ago having to offer free track time. Sorry, but I was part of this. When BMW offered me free track time, I set up my calendar to do every Wt Mt BMW event first, and COM events till my season was filled. I don't really time trial anymore, so it simply came down to.....do I want to instruct 2 students and pay 1/2 price or do I want to instruct 2 students and pay nothing. Occationally, SCDA sends out a last minute plea for instructors as they run far leaner and limit the number of instructors at events. I've been refused when I've been late with them. COM doesn't do that, nor does BMW.
Away events simply are money losers, right? We need to look to our past and team up with other clubs. We've done this in my memory with BMW, EMRA and Poughkeepsie. It's not that there are too many instructors at away events.....it's that there's not enough paying customers at away events. How about the Factory Five racing series at away events? Do like BMW does with club racing and set up a 1/2 hour practice for these racers and a 1/2 hour enduro.
It sure looks to me like the banquet for free is going to go away. That's not a bad thing. Pay and go. Seems fair. I'm not qualified to instruct you on how to eat that chicken breast, so I guess I'll have to pay when I eat.
I believe that the BMW events that have not fared well have been either because they were lumped together (3 or 4 days between clubs in a row is going to spread the students around rather than filling up all the days). I still see a ton of newbies at every school drivers meeting, regardless of the club.
jack
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