Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that this club is using NHIS events to subsidize free open track for instructors at away events? $380 to sit in traffic at crowded NHIS events?, two events 13 hours away at MoSport? Is anyone on this board self employed, or at least sat in a class about economics?
I realize I am cutting my own throat because if anyone is benefiting for this line of thinking and planning it will be me in 2007 because I won't be running my Indycar at NHIS but plan on running it on as many COM away events as possible. But that still does not help me but question the fiscal reasoning behind the direction this so-called "non-profit" club is going. I say it that way because it seems to me that the minority of members are profiting from the majoity. If the day should come that the club loses NHIS, this organization will go belly up faster than if it was on the season premier of ER. I just don't think it is right for the club to raise the rates at NHIS events, that are already highly profitable, in order to cover the losses at certain away events so that a few members can get unlimited track time. The more that I think about this, the more that it upsets me. Gary Cheney
$380 for NHIS??????
Hi Gary,
I apologize on behalf of the COM BoD to have not explained the reason for the price increase. We should have been more proactive about making the announcement, but I think I was too laxed about it.
To answer your questions and discuss about your hypothesis, firstly, you are correct about the NHIS events. They do subsidize all the away track event, which tend to be losses. The fee structure is designed to make money at NHIS and try to break even at away events. In the past, more than three years ago, COM used to have four NHIS events every year. The income from four annual NHIS events aptly covers the losses at four annual away events. However, the last three years due to calendar date shift, we are only able to secure three NHIS events every year. To supplement a missing NHIS event, we add an away event to continue our 8 event season. The change in income from the loss of the 4th NHIS event was greater than expected. Therefore, after three years, the club finds itself very low in liquid funds.
This brings us to our upcoming NHIS event. The price of the event is a one-time increase to help COM finance itself through the rest of the year. Summitpoint and Lime Rock prices are not expected to change in 2006.
Secondly, like you describe, COM is strictly "non-profit". I welcome you to our monthly board meetings in Chelmsford, where you can have a first-hand look at the club finances, which is discussed and reviewed openly.
Lastly, I think one of the things that makes COM special is the variety of tracks that it attends. Granted that the away events have barriers of entry for members such as distance, time required to travel, time-off required to attend the events and the risk of the track itself that prohibits many from going. We encourage everyone to try the away events as the experience is often well worth the dedication required to complete the event as a driver. Personally, I plan to continue COM's tradition of away events to fulfill a full time trial season of eight events. To help future attendance at the away events, COM is trying various ways to market to the local population at the away event locations. I believe we are making small headways in Canada finding local people to join us. The relationship has to be built slowly as the Canadian people do not know us and COM needs to prove that we are an able, safe and fun club to drive with.
Thank you for your time expressing your thoughts and concerns for the club. I will try to answer any additional questions you may have.
Alex Teng
COM President
I apologize on behalf of the COM BoD to have not explained the reason for the price increase. We should have been more proactive about making the announcement, but I think I was too laxed about it.
To answer your questions and discuss about your hypothesis, firstly, you are correct about the NHIS events. They do subsidize all the away track event, which tend to be losses. The fee structure is designed to make money at NHIS and try to break even at away events. In the past, more than three years ago, COM used to have four NHIS events every year. The income from four annual NHIS events aptly covers the losses at four annual away events. However, the last three years due to calendar date shift, we are only able to secure three NHIS events every year. To supplement a missing NHIS event, we add an away event to continue our 8 event season. The change in income from the loss of the 4th NHIS event was greater than expected. Therefore, after three years, the club finds itself very low in liquid funds.
This brings us to our upcoming NHIS event. The price of the event is a one-time increase to help COM finance itself through the rest of the year. Summitpoint and Lime Rock prices are not expected to change in 2006.
Secondly, like you describe, COM is strictly "non-profit". I welcome you to our monthly board meetings in Chelmsford, where you can have a first-hand look at the club finances, which is discussed and reviewed openly.
Lastly, I think one of the things that makes COM special is the variety of tracks that it attends. Granted that the away events have barriers of entry for members such as distance, time required to travel, time-off required to attend the events and the risk of the track itself that prohibits many from going. We encourage everyone to try the away events as the experience is often well worth the dedication required to complete the event as a driver. Personally, I plan to continue COM's tradition of away events to fulfill a full time trial season of eight events. To help future attendance at the away events, COM is trying various ways to market to the local population at the away event locations. I believe we are making small headways in Canada finding local people to join us. The relationship has to be built slowly as the Canadian people do not know us and COM needs to prove that we are an able, safe and fun club to drive with.
Thank you for your time expressing your thoughts and concerns for the club. I will try to answer any additional questions you may have.
Alex Teng
COM President
#423 ST3 1996 Sumazdaru Miata STi
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offcamber09
- Speed Racer
- Posts: 1014
- Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:44 pm
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Finances
In a response to losing Watkins Glen, I, as an instructor, made it known that
I would have been willing to pay a fee of some sort to keep that date. Do I think instructors are entitled to free track time- damn right. Until you've been thrown around in a 500 whp Mustang or Z06 with NO safety devices other than factory seat belts with a driver you only met 10 minutes ago- you really can't appreciate what that's worth. The same can be said for our club officals. We are a HP Driver's Education club and there isn't much education without teachers. For the upcoming NHIS event, since I will have 4 family members there- I chose to save the $100 I would have spent on the dinner and buy an anti-social Pizza or whatever.
Gary, not to throw you under the bus, but i think COM is still a relative bargain compared to most other clubs. I just got back from the SCCA Cheap Date and that is a half price event at $220. For that you get about 45 minutes of track time per day- If it's a race full of full course yellows- too bad. It's a great deal but it only happens 1 time a year. The rest of the time it's $220 per day and don't get me started about Limerock prices. We can only hope that new tracks are built and changes the effects of supply/demand.
I would have been willing to pay a fee of some sort to keep that date. Do I think instructors are entitled to free track time- damn right. Until you've been thrown around in a 500 whp Mustang or Z06 with NO safety devices other than factory seat belts with a driver you only met 10 minutes ago- you really can't appreciate what that's worth. The same can be said for our club officals. We are a HP Driver's Education club and there isn't much education without teachers. For the upcoming NHIS event, since I will have 4 family members there- I chose to save the $100 I would have spent on the dinner and buy an anti-social Pizza or whatever.
Gary, not to throw you under the bus, but i think COM is still a relative bargain compared to most other clubs. I just got back from the SCCA Cheap Date and that is a half price event at $220. For that you get about 45 minutes of track time per day- If it's a race full of full course yellows- too bad. It's a great deal but it only happens 1 time a year. The rest of the time it's $220 per day and don't get me started about Limerock prices. We can only hope that new tracks are built and changes the effects of supply/demand.
Scott Rosnick
#09 BMW 318ti-6
#09 BMW 318ti-6
COM has done quite well at NHIS compared to other clubs as far as sell outs. I spoke with WMC bmw event organizers and their August 18-26 NHIS event was bairly a brake even. They charged $400 for 3 days and has 3 student run groups, under 20 car per group and 1/2 hour session. The boston chapter had a loss at NHIS at their July 5-6?? event. From what I hear, PCA has also been scrambling to get students at NHIS too.
As for inexpensive track time, NHIS open track is a good deal. $100 for 1/2 day, no tech, drivers meeting or other BS. Depending on the car count, you could get at least as much track time as the traffic jam at a COM NHIS event. Unfortunatly for me, I have not had the funds for away events this year. In short, I am going to cough up the $380 for the track time. If my family comes with me, I'll be eating dinner at Brookside pizza.
Jonathan
900 Monte Carlo PA
As for inexpensive track time, NHIS open track is a good deal. $100 for 1/2 day, no tech, drivers meeting or other BS. Depending on the car count, you could get at least as much track time as the traffic jam at a COM NHIS event. Unfortunatly for me, I have not had the funds for away events this year. In short, I am going to cough up the $380 for the track time. If my family comes with me, I'll be eating dinner at Brookside pizza.
Jonathan
900 Monte Carlo PA
I wonder how many people feel like Gary? I get the inpression that some people feel we can pick and choose our track dates at NHIS or at any track we choose to go to. We would all love to have weekends at each track, but the sad truth is that is not going to happen. So we take what we are offered and do the best to make a schedule that doesn't have back to back events. If someone would like to do better I know the Vice Presidents seat is open for next year and they can run for the position. We could always give up all away events and just go to NHIS three times a year for a smaller fee. There are choices!
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I think it is a good time for a discussion about the direction of the club. I have really enjoyed my time with COMSCC and have always felt it was a great organization with a family atmosphere of participants. I don't think it should be taken as an attack on any individuals or groups, but a deliberation on what the majority of members want and expect from their club membership is needed.
That being said, I agree with Gary about the funding of free track for instructors. I also agree with Scott that being an instructor sometimes is for adreneline junkies only looking to flirt with death or serious bodily harm. A middle ground should be able to be reached about some costs being bourne by the instructor grouping and an increase in fees for certain track dates for all of the membership. Maybe another income source is to increase the yearly dues to $50. It's too bad to see the group dinner become a fiscal casualty, but it's not necessary for track time enjoyment. Hot dogs on the grill work...
For the regular guys a spreadsheet of some sort perhaps containing the rental and operational cost for each particular track event with a sliding scale of fees. Everyone is in agreement that NHIS is where COMSCC makes its money to fund away events. The away track junkies need to see and bear an increased cost for an increased amount of track time. NHIS can be a parking lot at times and Mosport, Glen, Tremblant etc gives an ample dose of open space for any who attend.
Like any relationship, communication is key. I congradulate the efforts of our VOLUNTEER leadership. It can definetely be a thanksless role. Hopefully the opening of Calaboogie and possibly CMP will help with getting better dates and relieve some increasing track fee pressure.
I hope this thread becomes constructive for the membership.
That being said, I agree with Gary about the funding of free track for instructors. I also agree with Scott that being an instructor sometimes is for adreneline junkies only looking to flirt with death or serious bodily harm. A middle ground should be able to be reached about some costs being bourne by the instructor grouping and an increase in fees for certain track dates for all of the membership. Maybe another income source is to increase the yearly dues to $50. It's too bad to see the group dinner become a fiscal casualty, but it's not necessary for track time enjoyment. Hot dogs on the grill work...
For the regular guys a spreadsheet of some sort perhaps containing the rental and operational cost for each particular track event with a sliding scale of fees. Everyone is in agreement that NHIS is where COMSCC makes its money to fund away events. The away track junkies need to see and bear an increased cost for an increased amount of track time. NHIS can be a parking lot at times and Mosport, Glen, Tremblant etc gives an ample dose of open space for any who attend.
Like any relationship, communication is key. I congradulate the efforts of our VOLUNTEER leadership. It can definetely be a thanksless role. Hopefully the opening of Calaboogie and possibly CMP will help with getting better dates and relieve some increasing track fee pressure.
I hope this thread becomes constructive for the membership.
I tend to agree with Gary's (blunt) perspective. At one point at some events I believe the student run groups had been limited due to insufficient (#s of) instructors and I took the position that by eliminating fees for instructors the club would attract more instructors and thus take on more students, a good thing. I also believe that for the TT day, any instructor who participates in the time trial ought to pay for that, just like all other TT participants.
Re NHIS events subsidizing away events: that is true, but then again how many people would be as active in COM and the time trials w/o the variety offerred? Limiting the season to only NHIS will ultimately hurt the club imo, so there is no getting around the subsidy of away events until event participation improves for away events (particularly for LRP and WGI, who charge extortionary rates imo).
I also believe there are ways to further maximize track time to make the cost per track minute more attractive to those who are comparison shopping, but that is another issue altogether.
Fred
Re NHIS events subsidizing away events: that is true, but then again how many people would be as active in COM and the time trials w/o the variety offerred? Limiting the season to only NHIS will ultimately hurt the club imo, so there is no getting around the subsidy of away events until event participation improves for away events (particularly for LRP and WGI, who charge extortionary rates imo).
I also believe there are ways to further maximize track time to make the cost per track minute more attractive to those who are comparison shopping, but that is another issue altogether.
Fred
I would like to offer a different point of view. We struggle to limit the losses at the away events due to low attendance, despite the increase in track time and the quality of the away tracks. We have been trying to boost attendance, even by advertising to get some people who are local to the tracks to come and join us. If we can't get our members to go to the events, raising the fees for away events is only going to make things worse. We have no problem selling out NHIS, so what is wrong with capitalizing on that? If we get more members to go to the away tracks and we break even then we don't have a financial problem and fees can go down.
As far as instructors sharing the burden, it has deen discussed many times at the board meetings. The vote is usually split.
Gordon
As far as instructors sharing the burden, it has deen discussed many times at the board meetings. The vote is usually split.
Gordon
The reason COM started pushing away events in the first place was that in the early '90s, it looked like we might be forced out of NHIS altogether. The away events (we even ran the Mt. Ascutney hill climb one year) served not only to supplement a shrinking NHIS schedule, but to provide somewhere to run in a worst case scenario - to avoid putting all our eggs in one basket. I think this logic still holds, as we can't deny that in the eyes of NHIS management, we are at the bottom of the food chain.
Hopefully, we will continue to get dates at NHIS, and hopefully, some new venues will open up in the New England area. In the mean time, we should cherish the opportunity to run at classic courses like Mt. Tremblant and Mosport, and should do what we can to increase attendance.
I don't think the away events are designed to benefit instructors at the expense of the general membership. Rather, members who participate at all the events (including the away events) are often serious competitors running for year end points. I'm guessing that many of these cometitors also happen to be instructors.
Finally
, I agree that a step in the right direction might be to charge instructors on time trial days.
Hopefully, we will continue to get dates at NHIS, and hopefully, some new venues will open up in the New England area. In the mean time, we should cherish the opportunity to run at classic courses like Mt. Tremblant and Mosport, and should do what we can to increase attendance.
I don't think the away events are designed to benefit instructors at the expense of the general membership. Rather, members who participate at all the events (including the away events) are often serious competitors running for year end points. I'm guessing that many of these cometitors also happen to be instructors.
Finally
, I agree that a step in the right direction might be to charge instructors on time trial days.I agree and you are right. I do no mind discussing issues anywhere because it ultimately affect both you and me.gread wrote:I hope this thread becomes constructive for the membership.
Everyone who posts here have usually have constructive things to say or good questions to further understand the club. There is nothing wrong with that. I will always try to answer the questions to the best of my ability.
Fred, what are you suggesting? COM does not charge just for the TT. COM charges for the entire day of the TT.Er, I am not suggesting instructors pay for time trial DAY, just for participating in the time trial itself. For any instrutor who balks at the TT fee, they sacrifice 3 laps (and a possible trophy), not an entire track day.
Fred
#423 ST3 1996 Sumazdaru Miata STi
I think the idea of instructors not paying for either of the two day event, when us non-student, non-instructors pay for both days is just silly. There are no students on a time trial day, period. By it's very nature, each participant is signed off for solo and able to compete.
It's true that instructors definitely put a lot on the line, getting into cars with students they don't know, and cars they haven't driven. There certainly needs to be recognition for that, but both the Porsche Club and BMW Club charge their instructors to run at their events, albeit at a reduced rate.
My proposal would be to have instructors pay full boat for time trial days; nobody has a student, and therefore we are all equal on the track (excepting of course for laptimes hehe). If we have 30 instructors per event, that would be $5250 additional revenue dollars each event. If that's not enough, or there are fewer instructors, a nominal fee for the DE day may be in order.
It's true that instructors definitely put a lot on the line, getting into cars with students they don't know, and cars they haven't driven. There certainly needs to be recognition for that, but both the Porsche Club and BMW Club charge their instructors to run at their events, albeit at a reduced rate.
My proposal would be to have instructors pay full boat for time trial days; nobody has a student, and therefore we are all equal on the track (excepting of course for laptimes hehe). If we have 30 instructors per event, that would be $5250 additional revenue dollars each event. If that's not enough, or there are fewer instructors, a nominal fee for the DE day may be in order.
I'm suggesting that instructors who are assigned students continue to get track time gratis for both days. For instructors who wish to participate in the time trial too, that would be extra($). I think that is fair(er) to all.
It ought to be possible to capture this additional choice in the online registration form (Pick One: One Day / Both Days / Both Days + TT).
Fred
It ought to be possible to capture this additional choice in the online registration form (Pick One: One Day / Both Days / Both Days + TT).
Fred
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