Suggestion for changing time trial format

[brucesallen]

FYI: SCCA qual sessions have multiple classes running at the same time hence some lap times differ by up to ten seconds. Not the best situation, but they deal with it.

[4EyedFoxbody]

So at this point we need to weigh the benefits against the potential problems. I see the added track time as a big benefit as well as additional attendance on Sundays (benefit for the club but, not necessarily a benefit for members). Other than these two point what would be the other major benefits to switching our current platform of timing? I agree that a lot of people (myself included) have seen faster lap times during practice than during the TT. Who doesn't like chasing a good rabbit??? Thoughts? Down side?

[hroundy]

I like the concept. Like others, my best laps have been during open lapping especially while chasing someone.

On Bill's concerns

• 1. We put up with weather changes now. I don't think we should give weather much consideration.
• 2. Can we move the RFID reader to a place where we would be single file, turn 10 or 11 at NHMS for example?
• 3. Bill is correct, only the official timer can count
• 4. Good rules on when a session is to be stopped and possibly restarted need to be considered. A short waving yellow may be okay but a multi-lap one is a problem.

It will change how we equip our cars.

• For example you might want the tires to work well for more than 3 or 4 laps. The Hoosier R7 could be a better choice over the the A7 during the time trial
• You may have to start with more fuel on board to make it to the end of the session
• Will you end up under weight as you burn off fuel and have to add ballast

[savage217]

Yes if we did 20 minutes of timed sessions everyone would definitely need to change their strategies. For years it's been 2 tires, one for practice, one for the TT. Often times that TT is a softer compound which heats up quickly due to only having 3 laps to make it count.

But think about it this way... The way the formats are right now, most people are only getting 3 laps per heat cycle on their "good tires". wouldn't you rather get 10-15 laps per heat cycle on your good tires?

[TroyV]

For many years, weather notwithstanding, my best laps were always in practice, until I adapted a strategy for how to TT effectively. Now, I am within a couple of tenths of my best practice laps. For me, part of what makes the COM TT special is the build up to it, that you need to have your game together, and that you need to perform for those three laps regardless of the situation (track and weather conditions, competition in your group etc..) you are presented with.

That said, my concerns are more culture based and a possible concern for safety issues regarding conditions. I'll explain. First the culture.. I think the atmosphere in the paddock is great at a COM event. Everyone helps everyone (generally) and the group has worked very hard to make folks feel welcome and included. A lot of this culture starts on the track, with respect for the passing rules and courteous behavior. Due to our competitive nature, I can see on track brinksmanship/gamesmanship, whatever your word for it is, becoming part of an individual's TT strategy. Two cars on a flier where a pass needs to be executed.....heated moments....folks laying up prior to a flier...anything that may make another individual lift or otherwise not give 100% on their lap(s). Add this up and some individuals may not get a fair shake out there, even for full sessions. I'm taking this to the extreme, but if it becomes "kill or be killed" out there, it will most certainly affect the culture in the paddock as well. That troubles me.

The safety concern is with regard to rain events. Folks pushing for lap times in the rain is not the same as driving in practice in the rain. Given the difference in relative skill levels between solo'd students, newly licensed drivers, and veterans, combined with an assortment of tires from full rains to 300 tw street tires, can add up to a dumpster fire of a TT session. The thing for veteran players to remember is that day one is a school, and that these drivers could be soloing for the first time. I can't tell you how many "Holy shit I didn't expect........" moments I have heard when newly solo'd folks go out with their classmates on day two. The TT is intimidating enough for them, and how we sell it to them is that they have the track to themselves.....the only time all weekend they will have the track to themselves really. I have had many of my students sign up for day two based on that pitch.

[jlaugh]

Thanks for weighing in Bill. Here are some thoughts on your points.
1.) Since your run group is Grid by lap time then anyone you are close to in your class should be right there with you. In fact, it you grid fastest to slowest in the group you should be right next to your competition. Only complication is if your competition in class happens to get split from you; for example if you were the slowest in your run group and your competition was the fastest in the next run group. Still only 20 minutes apart. I imagine that happens in TT all the time.
2.)Very good point about RFID card reading. Would it be possible to set up reader in nearest corner to start finish line where no passing is allowed? I know there are many times in the past where you guys had to do that with the old system.
3.) Of course in car timing doesn't count for results.
4.) That is up for debate - DQ of a car that causes a waving yellow. Could treat it like a normal practice session, after all you have 20 minutes to put together a fast lap. On the other side of the coin the pressure to not mess up might make people behave.

A couple of questions for you. How many cars were in run group 0 and run group 1 last weekend on Saturday? Run group 1 looked very crowded to me and I would think anyone in run group 1 might be skeptical of getting a few clean laps in this new format. But remember there would be only 12 or so cars with very similar lap times. I am lucky in that I usually get my fastest laps of the weekend in the Instructor group and often I see no other cars and start looking at the flag stations wondering if I screwed up and missed a checkered.

[jvangelder]

I ran group 1 on Saturday and Sunday, i do recall getting quite a few laps without any other cars around me both days.

Ive been following this thread for the last two days and agree that it would be nice to work the time trial in a way that gave us more track time on day two. I have decided against registering for day two in the past solely because it would be only two sessions instead of 4


-Jacob

[breakaway500]

I like the format of time trails as it stands. It is driver vs. the track..with the least amount of variables being part of the equation: weather,personal execution and luck. If you toss in traffic and having to pass to that equation, you change a great deal.
Passing requires a time consideration for both parties,unless you happen to catch them at the perfect time on track,which doesn't happen often. Someone usually has to lift. Like the old adage goes...you lift,you lose. Getting one clean lap during practice is rare..getting three in a row is pretty much impossible. I got a point by this summer during practice and was cursed for not passing fast enough...even though I had my foot to the floor. He was on a fast lap..but so was I. I can see this scenario happening a LOT more frequently if we are now going to be driving 100% in traffic. I just don't see it ending well..

I prefer the TT format as is. It is not perfect,but it is a clean and simple test of ones ability to execute at 100%,right now! This is GO time…!

As far as more track time....I would rather sacrifice a few session laps to gain those cherished few laps of being out there mostly unlimited,and getting it done....

[Bobc]

I have to agree with Mark..
The closure rate in group 1 can be unbelievable, at like Thompson or Palmer the slower car does not even know they are being reeled in, till the rear view mirror is full of let’s just say Corvette. That has happened on many laps in the last few years..( the reason for the windshield banner Dana, Cassie and Laura put on my car LOL) and a catch like that in a no passing area or the end of a passing zone could totally ruin a good lap for the faster car thru no fault of the slower car but just that they were that much slower on the given lap……
I really like the "this is Go time " part of our current format you must either bring it or you suffer for it. Would I have liked more than 10 PSI on my right front after the TT on Sunday at NHMS yes but that is the nature of the format I failed to bring it.
I know how intimidating that may be to a new person but after you try it a few times it gets addictive trying to get a new personal best……
Bob

[dantheman]

I'll second that, I'd miss the feeling of butterflies making my stomach sick
while I impatiently wait for my run group to go out and knowing I have
the track all to my self to haul ass and run the fastest 3 laps I can
With No excuses

[joncowen]

What if we tried a mock gridded time trial session, the morning of the normal TT day, as a feeler? We could do 2 sessions of time trial instead of the 2 practice sessions. We could do it at a track familiar to everyone (nhms, maybe).

OR, something i've been wanting for years. What if we simply grid the practice session by the best lap of the previous session? This will give us each a few really good clean laps in each practice session.

As it is now, for me, i get in grid for practice when i'm ready (usually near the front). I usually have to let a few cars by, and usually get stuck in a train. I tend to pit in, sometimes more than once in a session, looking for open track. It's frustrating. The time differences are pretty substantial between cars even in the same class. If we gridded by times, and anyone on time to grid gets 2 or 3 full laps, before the stragglers (late to grid) can be let on, it might allow better practice for everyone. It might also be a way to test and practice for a possible future time trial format change.

[paultg]

One thought I had is if this new format was used for the entire day and requires smaller on-track groups, would there be an issue with lost time due to additional turnover of cars on/off track.

Right now the schedule is 4 groups for 20 min sessions in the morning, then th TT groups.
If we went to many more groups of 15 min sessions, is there a chance of more time lost with switching groups frequently?

Maybe it's no worse than what we do now?

Paul G.

[paultg]

Didn't realize 2 pages. Jon I like your idea of grid my times.
Many of the touring classes overlap in times (i.e. Fast T50 quicker than T60)
I think it could be fun to be grouped with other drivers you might night share track with in our current format.

I do like the TT format now though and knowing its you against the track. I've been successful running my best laps during the TT at most of my events in 2014. I usually skip open track after though as I don't want to jinx myself!

[savage217]

What if we tried a mock gridded time trial session, the morning of the normal TT day, as a feeler? We could do 2 sessions of time trial instead of the 2 practice sessions. We could do it at a track familiar to everyone (nhms, maybe).

OR, something i've been wanting for years. What if we simply grid the practice session by the best lap of the previous session? This will give us each a few really good clean laps in each practice session.

As it is now, for me, i get in grid for practice when i'm ready (usually near the front). I usually have to let a few cars by, and usually get stuck in a train. I tend to pit in, sometimes more than once in a session, looking for open track. It's frustrating. The time differences are pretty substantial between cars even in the same class. If we gridded by times, and anyone on time to grid gets 2 or 3 full laps, before the stragglers (late to grid) can be let on, it might allow better practice for everyone. It might also be a way to test and practice for a possible future time trial format change.

I agree with this. I don't want to get too far off topic but for a long time I've talked among the group members regarding the traffic situation in run groups. If we grid people in their respective run groups by time it should work out to where traffic is not as bad. This would be pretty easy to accomplish and I think that it would be a good starting point to test the potential for a new time trial format.

[savage217]

What if we tried a mock gridded time trial session, the morning of the normal TT day, as a feeler? We could do 2 sessions of time trial instead of the 2 practice sessions. We could do it at a track familiar to everyone (nhms, maybe).

OR, something i've been wanting for years. What if we simply grid the practice session by the best lap of the previous session? This will give us each a few really good clean laps in each practice session.

As it is now, for me, i get in grid for practice when i'm ready (usually near the front). I usually have to let a few cars by, and usually get stuck in a train. I tend to pit in, sometimes more than once in a session, looking for open track. It's frustrating. The time differences are pretty substantial between cars even in the same class. If we gridded by times, and anyone on time to grid gets 2 or 3 full laps, before the stragglers (late to grid) can be let on, it might allow better practice for everyone. It might also be a way to test and practice for a possible future time trial format change.

Agree 100%