Suggestion for changing time trial format

[jlaugh]

I do quite like the old COM time trial. I started doing them in 1979 so it’s a bit of a tradition for me. However, trying to do it with 62 cars at NHMS, or 70 at Palmer takes the entire afternoon. With the modern timing card system COM has in place many possibilities exist. How about this; sort of combining the time trial concept with the timed open lapping that some clubs use:


“Time Trial” still takes place at 1:00 on 2nd day. Take all the practice lap times from Day 1 and morning of Day 2 and sort them by fastest lap. Take out the competitors that are not doing the time trial. Then divide them by 5 groups to give a relatively even number of cars in each group. For example if there are 60 competitors, the fastest 12 are in one group, the next fastest 12 are in a second group, etc. Each group has a 20 minute “time trial” session. Cars are released 5 – 10 seconds apart depending on length of track. Cars stay on pace after checkered flag to stay ahead of next group being released and they return to pits through normal pit in. A competitor needs to go out with his or her initial group release to avoid coming on track with cold tires and slowing someone on a hot lap. However they can pit in whenever they want as long as they don’t impede another car. All normal practice session rules are in effect, including point bys. “Time trial” should be completed in 1 hour 40 minutes if there are no incidents. If started at 1:00 (with 5 groups) and with 20 minutes of delays then at 3:00 normal practice sessions or open track can resume.
Obviously rain rules would have to be written. For example day 1 rain day 2 dry; then only morning day 2 practice times would be used. I am sure tweaks to this concept would be required but it could possibly make time trial days more interesting for competitors.

[Mark Swinehart]

Let me make a guess.

You were in one of the final Run Groups this past Sunday.

[joncowen]

I like the idea.

[4EyedFoxbody]

I could see a lot of conflict potential regarding point by's and traffic hindering someones fast lap(s). Not sure I would want a full session of cars on track for my time trial. Worth debating though.

[TroyV]

I think some real data on this would help, but my feeling is that our participation was pretty good this year given the struggles of the other clubs in this region. That tells me that folks like the competition and the product we present. Each of the methods (separate groups like we do now, or larger groups run) present different challenges requiring the same amount of consideration and strategy. The RFID system would allow changes like this, but there would need to be some serious discussion on the topic.

I can't speak for the BOD, but as a BOD member, I get a sense that the only thing it would vote on positively is if there were convicing data suggesting that day two participation would rise by an significant amount.

[jlaugh]

No, it wasn't inspired by my time trial run group - I would have been hanging out chatting and checking out cars even if I had already run. I have been thinking about this for a while; especially after hearing feedback from some old friends that there is no point in hanging around for a time trial afternoon unless you are competitive in class and want to hang out for awards. (By the way I had to leave due to family duties and still don' t know if I was 1st or 5th...)

[brucesallen]

I strongly support this idea. Our new technology allows us to use the SCCA racing methods of Qualification session that use transponders-- except we will be better because cars in each session will be grouped by lap time rather than race number as in SCCA where a lot of disparity in lap times exists.

Today we have low registrations on second day and over subscription on Saturday because Sunday is a bad financial deal with only half the lap time available on Sunday. And many leave right after their time trial because the rest of the day is lost, often with little open track. With this new format, even the "Time Trial" sessions would be good open practice for a number of cars even if they don't care about the competition. In fact, why not change grouping for all Sunday sessions to be sorted by lap times?? Someone running only on Sunday? Let then slot themselves into the right group.

I think the "Time Trial Sessions" could have more than 12 cars to further provide track time for all. 20 at NHMS and more at other tracks would be fine. All a competitor needs is one clean lap to register. SCCA sometimes has up to 25 cars in Qual sessions at NMHS but since we would spread the cars equally over the sessions, we would have a lower maximum.

[savage217]

I fully support this idea as well.

[cuda6666]

Works for F1 and NASCAR qualifying sessions.

[FredK]

I like this idea.

My only question is what happens if there's a flag that requires the track to be shut down for the wrecker (like at Palmer). Will the session just be extended? I.e. control brings everyone in, the wrecker retrieves the car, then control re-releases the cars?

[ED9man]

I like the idea, but I think it would make sense for the entire second day to run in this format. But maybe slightly shorter heats with smaller numbers of competitors than you suggested with longer student/non-competitor heats in between each round. I think with one TT heat, and 12 cars on track there's a very good chance that some people will get no clean laps and some will get many, with multiple heats that count there's less chance of that happening. Maybe 8 cars, 15 minutes, 2 rounds with 25-30 minute heats in between? I think finding the right balance is the key.

[joncowen]

I agree. People don't show on day 2, because if you are not competitive in your class, it's a bad value.

I think it would need to be all day Sunday (or 2nd day). This is somewhat similar to how Nasa does their TT.

We could grid by lap time, fastest up front, and release the cars at short intervals. Or, as Nasa does, the leader could be pace car for the out lap, and the cars go full speed a few turns before start finish, one at a time. Anyone who shows up late to grid, has to wait for the field to go by for 2 or 3 laps, so they don't screw it up. That way, each car who's on time for grid has the potential to get 2 or 3 completely clean laps, assuming people don't substantially change pace.

Some people would need to pass still, but if we had, say 4 TT sessions on Sunday, there's an excellent chance each person would get at their fair share of TT laps. I think we could do a pretty decently sized field in each tt session if we do that.

For those not interested in TT, we could have sessions for them, without timing and gridding.

Many of us run a faster time in practice than they can in the TT. So, fast laps can be had even without a perfectly open track.

[4EyedFoxbody]

From all I have been reading I think the club needs to take a hard look at this proposal. Obviously it would take a few events to work out the kinks but the end product might be good for everyone. I am interested to see where this goes. I agree this would be a positive change.

[TroyV]

I think this is an interesting discussion.

The time trial format is defined in the rule book. To change it, someone needs to submit a well thought out proposal to change the rules. Submit a rule change for consideration to rules at comscc dot org. Historically, those that want the change need to define it and champion it. You will need to own it. It doesn't mean you won't be able to obtain help from those that are close to the process, but the point is that if you want a change this big, you need to be willing to drive that change, debate it, get it to pass muster, work to see it through, be part of its implementation, and apply periodic tweaks/maintenance to it in the interest of fairness.

So, the question is, which one of you will champion the cause?

[bhoss]

As the Chief of Timing & Scoring I have proposed this several times to the board with a very luke warm response - tradition still has a strong grip on this club.

From a T&S perspective here are a few issues to consider:

1) You will most likely have to run entire classes together (even with large speed differences) due to potential weather/track condition issues (the slow guys run in the dry then the fast group gets rain) - this has been a big complaint in the past even with our current rules.

2) The RFID cards will not read when blocked by another car - if you pass someone right in front of the beacon, the signal from the car furthest away is blocked and not read - they lose that lap AND THE NEXT LAP until the timing can recycle. AT NHMS they will point you by on the right and you may lose you 2 fastest laps.

3) The use of any lap times generated by in-car timing will not be even considered.

4) Catches will be done away with but anyone causing as waving yellow or requiring a tow (spin or mechanical) will be DQ'ed. With no 20 second spacing, the corner workers will be faster to wave that flag.

I think that we can all see the benefits of "group" TT's but we need to look very closely at potential issues/problems with this type of system. Any thoughts?