Race Tires Surveys - what's your take on this?

[StephanAlfa]

Just saw this from TireRack, and find it hard to believe that Kumho ECSTA V710 are better than BFG-R1s and further rates then almost at par with Hoosiers: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyres ... jsp?type=C

[962porsche]

if you look you will see the hoosier R6 has the best dry traction , corning , and steering response .
i have used the r6 and the v710's on the vw and the red 944 spec car the hoosier's are a little faster tire than the v710's . but they also tend to not last as long as the v710's .
in the wet the two just suck ! but that is why they make rain tires right .

[Grippy]

I think those ratings are made up from their user surveys, which mean worthless.
While the V710 is a very good tire (it's what I use) and a great value, it is not on par with the current crop of newer tires like the R1. But they are more tolerant to heat cycles and are better over a longer life span. I don't see them drop off until over 20 heat cycles, try that with a Hoosier.

[StephanAlfa]

I think those ratings are made up from their user surveys, which mean worthless.
While the V710 is a very good tire (it's what I use) and a great value, it is not on par with the current crop of newer tires like the R1. But they are more tolerant to heat cycles and are better over a longer life span. I don't see them drop off until over 20 heat cycles, try that with a Hoosier.

Gordon:
You bring good points as my next question would be our class sheet rating has the BFG 2 points HIGHER (and at per with Ho-hos) than Kumhos
I too have a set of each (Kumho V-710 and BFG-R1) and use the V710 for "practice" and was wondering if I should switch based on that survey ... thanks for the clarification!

[dtlemoine]

I think those ratings are made up from their user surveys, which mean worthless.
While the V710 is a very good tire (it's what I use) and a great value, it is not on par with the current crop of newer tires like the R1. But they are more tolerant to heat cycles and are better over a longer life span. I don't see them drop off until over 20 heat cycles, try that with a Hoosier.

+1 on all counts, especially with regards to the value of TireRack survey data.

[Chrispy]

You bring good points as my next question would be our class sheet rating has the BFG 2 points HIGHER (and at per with Ho-hos) than Kumhos
I too have a set of each (Kumho V-710 and BFG-R1) and use the V710 for "practice" and was wondering if I should switch based on that survey ... thanks for the clarification!

The BFG and the Hoosier are +1 points over the V710 only because of them being wider. I think the lap times are very close, and as Gordon said the V710's can take a lot of heat cycles before losing pace.

[Grippy]

But I don't think the lap times are that close with 710's VS. A6 (or others).

[Chrispy]

But I don't think the lap times are that close with 710's VS. A6 (or others).

710 vs R6/SM6 isn't that far off, maybe a few tenths. A6/R1-S is a good amount faster but that is why it is an extra 2 points (3 points counting width vs 710).

[WillM]

The BFG and the Hoosier are +1 points over the V710 only because of them being wider. I think the lap times are very close, and as Gordon said the V710's can take a lot of heat cycles before losing pace.

Having seen several stacks of V710's, I'm not sure I agree with that statement! Is your point about the Hoosiers and BFG's being wider than the V710s based on internet fact or experience?

In my experience, the R1s dropped off like the Hoosiers do.

If the V710 was available in my size, I would be running 'em (or at least tried them).

Many, many say than the NT-01 is on par with Hoosier R6. In my experience, they are very close.

[TroyV]

I don't put much stock in surveys. What I do know is that My Cobra loved 710's and hated Hoosiers and Hankooks. My Miata seems to like Hoosiers and Kooks more than 710's.....and I seem to like NT-01's more than all of them, even though they don't always produce the fastest lap times.

Hoosiers are expensive and don't last a long time....such that folks walk on egg shells driving them when compared with less expensive rubber like the NT-01 that lasts a lot longer. I'm thinking the comparison is skewed between the R6/SM6 and the NT for that reason. I drive the NT's WAY harder than I do the Hoosiers because I know that tire can take it.

[wizzman]

The R6/SM6 is hands down faster than the NT-01/RA-1 no question. I think Troy touched on why some feel that is not true. Many people including myself run most of our laps on the Nitto/Ra-1. It is a more forgiving tire that is easier to drive up to and just past the limit. It can feel faster because its a much easier tire to teeter totter on the limit of grip. That said the ultimate grip of the Hoosier is far and away superior. It is a much faster tire. My data and lap times back this up.

[Chrispy]

Having seen several stacks of V710's, I'm not sure I agree with that statement! Is your point about the Hoosiers and BFG's being wider than the V710s based on internet fact or experience?

In my experience, the R1s dropped off like the Hoosiers do.

If the V710 was available in my size, I would be running 'em (or at least tried them).

Many, many say than the NT-01 is on par with Hoosier R6. In my experience, they are very close.

My experience backs up the internet at least in the sizes I have owned. They are on average just under 10mm wider at the same width rating from my own measurements. We could dispense of the width business and simply call the R6/SM6/R1 a 7 point tire, might make it easier and less confusing going forward. In the end we are interested in what a given tire in a given width can produce for lap times.

I would agree that the R1's drop off rather quickly. As a sticker set they were a good 2 seconds faster than the NT-01 at Summit Point, but at NHMS it was a battle for them to beat the NT-01 time from the previous session, and when I did it was only by a few tenths. Of course completely different conditions. I'll give them one more shot at NJ and compare in the extreme heat.

I would say that a fresh R6 has about 1 to 1.5 seconds on the NT-01 at NHMS, but it isn't always achievable unless the conditions are ideal. The NT-01 is such a versatile tire in that it works in a very wide temperature range and seems to be happy with large slip angles, they are really easy to drive on at the limit. I wear them down to the cords and they don't appear to fall off at all.

I like the feel of the V710 as well, but the tire has got so expensive in the last 2 years. The Korean tire used to be a relative bargain but now costs more than the US made Hoosier. What's up with that?

[austaz]

I have the data from last year in the E36, it was pulling 1.2 to 1.3g in corners on Ra-1 and 1.4g to 1.45g on R6 in the same corner and this increase was pretty standard across a collection of tracks /sessions. This year the Ra-1 (shaved 4/32 and worn a bit more) and the NT01 (full tread but a bit worn) are pretty similar in cornering grip but the Ra-1 definatly feels like it has more grip when braking. All the tires are 225/45/15.

[WillM]

I would say that a fresh R6 has about 1 to 1.5 seconds on the NT-01 at NHMS, but it isn't always achievable unless the conditions are ideal. The NT-01 is such a versatile tire in that it works in a very wide temperature range and seems to be happy with large slip angles, they are really easy to drive on at the limit. I wear them down to the cords and they don't appear to fall off at all.

I agree 100% with that, and take it a step further to say that not only do the conditions have to be 'right' and the Hoosier have to be fresh, but so does car setup.

How many of us have done real data logging and tire testing?

When I say that 'some people' say the NT-01's are every bit as fast as the Hoosiers, I'm talking about guys that run cars with crews, test and keep records with pyrometers, and make alignment changes at the track. These are guys/builders that have track-specific suspension setups (spring rates, shock & sway adjustments) as well as track-specific setups (alignment, ride height, corner balance).

In my personal experience, the Hoosiers are a hair faster given the right conditions. The tires have to be new and the track conditions have to be cool, and it has to be the 'right' track. The July NHMS event was hot, the A6's were too greasy, the R6's OK, but the Nittos would have been the better choice. I've been experimenting a bit with Nitto tire pressure, but think my setup would need more camber to effectively run the Nittos. Though I own and occasionally use a tire pyrometer, and setup the car a couple of times a year, I can't say that I've ever optimized any setup specific to the tires I run.

[962porsche]

i used to do all the suspension setup take temps and so on when i was running the porsche and vw years ago . not with the diasio as i only use the same full slicks with that car and because it used to brake down all the time there was always some thing else to do .
any way the hoosiers need to be scuffed in for 3 to 4 laps then let them sit for 48 hours or more out of the sun . that is what will give them a faster time than the v710's and also a longer life than if you just mount the r6's and run them . they still do not last as long as the 710's but almost as long maybe 2 or 3 less track days .
if you don't scuff them then i found they will only have about 2/3 the life as the 710's do and after the 2nd track day there is not differents between the lap times of the two .
the hoosiers in no way like tire temp over 200 degrees 192 is the temps i would try to get because they worked the best at that temp .
the v710's you could run temps up to 217 and they did not mind that kind of temps at all but they too did not like high temps of any thimg over 220 the v710's i found worked good at about 197 degrees .

i did try to use the R6's twice on the diasio just for track days and they just could not build any heat in them . the highest temps i could get were 147 degrees . they are in no way made for a light car like the diasio i let the air out of the tires untill they were at 12 LBS and still could not get any heat into them . the inside and out side temps of the tires were 158 and the center temps were 110 . it was like driving on ice !
the hoosiers do not like light cars at all hoosier told me cars of 1700 LBS and less the R6's are not realy made for car of that weight .