PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

[eastcoastbumps]

Woah,,, woah,,, woah,,,
So your proposal is to change an entire class philosophy for the most unlimited build cars in the club,,, based around the bottom of the spectrum cars who were bumped into it by an arcane rule like a headliner or carpet?
Why not just change that wording in the rules,,, and get rid of arcane bumping points,,, not,,, dissect and fundamentally change an entire class for the low end of the spectrum

No, its not. But it would be wise to take a better look at the competitors in each class and understand why they are in Prepared or Street Prepared before declaring the current classing system better than anything proposed.

The nature of the new T rules has fixed your perceived portion of the problem. None of those Spec Miatas will be bumped into Prepared,,, so now we have the perfect reason to LEAVE PREPARED ALONE.

Dont penalize the guys who actually have cars at the pointy end of the class for all those who were "bumped" into it.
Fix the reason for the silly bumps,,,, not,,, penalize the guys who actually have Prepared class cars.
That thinking is really what is broken, not the Prepared rules.

The 'bumps' to take the street and under-prepared cars out of Prepared and Street Prepared has worked. Now there is hardly anyone in each of the 7 SP and P classes. If we combine the remainder that have stayed in SP and P, who gets penalized?

Lap times are a function of car and driver,,, and should not ever factor into classing.


Car preparation alone determines class.
Drivers are drivers, they are meat puppets when cars get classed.
The comparison of the lap times across the Prepared classes means nothing. It just means who and what showed up on any given day.
It should not be used as a benchmark to dismantle a class based around an open ruleset when you have people competing in it who like the open ruleset.

I'm glad were in agreement on at least one thing!!!

It blows my mind that the memo may not have been fully circulated that Prepared class is a class for actual fully Prepared competition cars.
Yes, if you show up with a street Miata with only part of the preparation done to make it a full on competition car,,, yep you are going to get crushed in PC.
Go back to your garage and finish your "Race Car".
Show up with an F Production Miata that weighs 2100lbs and has 12:1 compression race engine and a dog ring race trans running on race slicks,,, yep,,, you will run really well in PC.

Basing classes off cars that don't show up to COM events makes as much sense as classing cars based on lap times, headliners, COM bars, or lug nuts.

I am not fighting for my (or anyones) perceived place at the pointy end of my class.
I "am" fighting for the openess of the class to remain just that so that what is done to the car,,, within those very basic parameters that exist now,,, never has to factor in to what other types of cars and power plants we compete against.

The current 'problem' with SP and P is that there are too many classes, no close competition except for a few cars (Will and Gordon), and there are 'silly things' that separate the classes. You agree that turbo cars should not run in B with the NA 6 cylinder cars. Adding two more classes for turbo cars makes no sense to me when we're already handing out 'Everyones a Winner' participation trophies due to lack of competition.

We should come up with something that combines the classes (or divides them, however you want to look at it) in a way that makes sense and is fair for the current competitors in those classes. I do not agree that cylinder count or turbos are the proper way to structure the classes. And flat out saying 'NO, ITS FINE NOW' isn't going to get us anywhere.

I want to run against cars that have similar power regardless of engine design and take no glory in beating a car with a similar engine design that makes 100hp less, 'racecar' or not. I also take no glory in winning by default. I want a rabbit.

I would like to see the rules open and simple, but making them strictly power to weight might not be the right way for our club. You mentioned how NASA GTS rules make it difficult for a 4 cylinder car to be competitive. And its true. If you or Fred raced in NASA GTS you would be in GTS3 or the faster GTS4. The current WGI track record for GTS3 is 2:02. NASA's time trial rules would not have you in the same class as a GTS3 or 4 car. You would most likely be in TT3 where you have a much better chance. (FYI, NASA has a Pwr/wt modifier for smaller displacement motors in TT3, TT2, TT1 and TTU).

[McMahonRacing]

""" The 'bumps' to take the street and under-prepared cars out of Prepared and Street Prepared has worked. Now there is hardly anyone in each of the 7 SP and P classes. """ ....... FYI, that is not the only thing that dropped the numbers in these classes, you might be better off looking at who is & who is not here this season and asking WHY ?

""" Car preparation alone determines class. Drivers are drivers, they are meat puppets when cars get classed """ ...... have been amazed since this classing structure started that someone has been so intelligent as to be able to determine the speed/performance of a particular car based on magazine articles / percieved perf. results across various tracks we never see / etc. and can so accurately tell someone how fast they should be, data collection is great and can get you maybe in the ball park if all things are equal. but then reality will hit ........ to repeat it doesn't work in NASA, it doesn't work outside of a Spec series, it doesn't work ...COM, is as I understand it suppose to be a club, trying to institute race rules no matter how well intended just isn't going to work when applied the variety of different cars/trucks/etc. that than can run .... there are only 7 prepared cars, how many have you heard from in this post alone saying to leave it alone, wonder why ....

Anyway, before I /we go off any further on a tangent regarding my opinions ( this is after all one the deciding factors in my going to NASA and leaving PA, yep the classing worked I'm not in PA any more I'm in ST2 w/ NASA ), I will politely bow out of this discussion and let the cards fall where they may ..... good luck

[eastcoastbumps]

""" The 'bumps' to take the street and under-prepared cars out of Prepared and Street Prepared has worked. Now there is hardly anyone in each of the 7 SP and P classes. """ ....... FYI, that is not the only thing that dropped the numbers in these classes, you might be better off looking at who is & who is not here this season and asking WHY ?

I don't like speaking for others or speculating. But no one that is in SP or P isn't showing up due to messing with the rules in those classes if that is what you're trying to infer. Those rules did not change. Maybe we can get the 17 people that have left SP and P for Touring to chime in on why they no longer run in those classes.

I ran one event last year in PC with the red S2000 against Fred. Thats because the car does not have windows and wouldn't fit in any other class. I'm sure if I built the motor with 12:1 compression, put in a sequential transmission, dropped 600 lbs and ran sticker slicks it would run real good against Fred. Or I could just run it in a class that makes sense for the way the car is built.

I placed 2nd to Fred (no surprise there!) and would have been 2nd in PB or PA if I decided to run in one of those classes. The class winners in PC, PB and PA were within one second of each other at that event.

""" Car preparation alone determines class. Drivers are drivers, they are meat puppets when cars get classed """ ...... have been amazed since this classing structure started that someone has been so intelligent as to be able to determine the speed/performance of a particular car based on magazine articles / percieved perf. results across various tracks we never see / etc. and can so accurately tell someone how fast they should be, data collection is great and can get you maybe in the ball park if all things are equal. but then reality will hit ........ to repeat it doesn't work in NASA, it doesn't work outside of a Spec series, it doesn't work ...COM, is as I understand it suppose to be a club, trying to institute race rules no matter how well intended just isn't going to work when applied the variety of different cars/trucks/etc. that than can run .... there are only 7 prepared cars, how many have you heard from in this post alone saying to leave it alone, wonder why ....

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that the whole Touring points system is flawed? A6's are not faster than a street tire? A double adjustable shock is not a performance advantage over a factory non-adjustable shock? Or is it a 'who are you to judge what makes a car fast?' statement? If its the latter, then you're right. We don't have a Department of Defense budget to test every shock on every car on every tire on every track to to write a rule book that makes an absolutely perfect and level playing field where it only comes down to the driver.

Guys in Touring are building cars to the limits of the class. The top drivers in each class have some very tough competition and the competition is very close. Sure, you can look at the spread of times and say the competition isn't getting closer vs. last year. But then go over to the guy that came in last and look at his car compared to the guy who came in first. How different are the cars? If they're nearly the same (or have nearly the same potential lap time) then the rules worked and the driver in last needs to work on getting better. If the cars are very different, the rules are flawed and should be changed.

Anyway, before I /we go off any further on a tangent regarding my opinions ( this is after all one the deciding factors in my going to NASA and leaving PA, yep the classing worked I'm not in PA any more I'm in ST2 w/ NASA ), I will politely bow out of this discussion and let the cards fall where they may ..... good luck

So if you like the 'Unlimited' rules of PA, why are you running in ST2? If you don't like running with blast or de-tuning your motor, why are you? Why not run in SU with NASA. Thats their PA. Seems hypocritical to bash a COM rule change proposal that closely mirrors the current NASA TT rules, then go run with NASA and not run in their Unlimited class.

[McMahonRacing]

Like I mentioned I think it only fair that I bow out, so let's stop responding to my portions of post, I will offer couple points .....

When the rules discussion was first posted for comment, I chimed in w/ my opinions and thoughts in what I felt was a reasonably polite & helpful manner, this was well before they decided to not include a Super class for 2013 .... the response that got at the time from those generating the rules was to say the very least less than satisfactory, minds were set and really not open for discussion kinda that same it is going now ....... so seeing the direction that things were headed I decided it was time for a change & once I make a decision I very rarely go back on it, hence even after the decision to not have a Super in 2013 I still went my way ... so yes, among other things the rules proposals pushed me just enough to leave, another funky kit car out of the mix.

Yep NASA has rules, they don't work either -- said this many a time, mostly because I don't have a car or the $$$ to maximize the strong points of the rules set ... so why am I playing in that field, well long story short I was in COM to spend time w/ my Dad before we no longer have the opportunity to do so and those that I have talked w/ in the past new my intention was to move to NASA at some point, but COM was simple, fun & lacked the BS ( in PA anyway ) till now, so why not make the move the rules are the same, the tracks have changed ( never did see the benefit of running to Canada & NASA is after all all across the US & also accepted by other sanctioning bodies ), also I no longer feel as though I am running over folks ( over the last couple yrs. it has felt as though I have run up some folks a little to hard ( ie: lap time spread is just way too much at times ) making it hard on them from a learning & enjoyment standpoint and causing me to change my running habits, like grabbing 5-6 laps right off and then parking it due too traffic, NASA racers have no real passing rules - test day - practice -
qualifying - are all just like mini races and a whole new adventure.

Do I personally think Touring is flawed, YES, then again that is my opinion .. I also think any Super classing will be as well, the thing I see w/ Super will just highlight the flaws that you have in Touring - like I was told at one point it is a kit car so it can't be classed like it wasn't a real car .... to me all the rules did was create another complex imperfect system based on good faith and we know where that got us last time, so what really improved ( yes some are happier & I bet some are not, prob. just the reverse of what we had before ) .. reality is we don't have the resources to create - maintain - equalize & police a system like this, so how can it work and yes, how can anyone tell how fast a particular car is mods or no mods w/o an apples to apples comparision.

You really think I am bashing a proposal, the way I see it I am one of a very few who now have experience w/ both sets of rules and can offer an honest perspective based on REALITY .... Hypocritical, yea can certainly be seen that way as well but, add in the all the benefits of having a NASA race card ( what does a COM card do other than test days @ NHMS or LRP, that is if you even get sent the one you paid for ) and it certainly justifies the additional rules aggravation ..... as for adding ballast/detuning - didn't touch the tune added the ballast because at this time it is much easier than relocating the driveline and building a new $15k motor ( seemed to make sense to me for the moment anyway ) and yes will be moving on up as the $$$ presents itself prob. w/ a max of ST1 as SU is just way out of my budget ( try GT1 cars w/ 800hp ) ..... listen to me or not I guess in the big picture it just doesn't matter, I made my decision and am quite content w/it given all it's benefits.

As I have mentioned, we are moving a bit off topic ... lets please leave this here & if you want to have a debate shoot me a PM so this post can remain useful to others, as I highly suspect we will not end in agreement, let's just agree to disagree and move on.