PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by PaddyMcP » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:11 am

boltonite wrote:
eastcoastbumps wrote:The majority of people in Prepared have not built their car to run in Prepared. They build it for the sake of building it or they have built it to run somewhere else and they get caught in the 'catch all' that is Prepared or Street Prepared.
Whoa, this line of reasoning was only valid LAST YEAR. To use it now, "Super" becomes the new "catch-all" when you max-out of Touring [STREET Prepared is slated for extinction, so I've heard], making Prepared and Super no different in this respect.

FF

Fred's exactly right. We fixed this with touring. And people are much happier.

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by McMahonRacing » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:08 pm

So ... Touring is "all fixed" and "everyone is much happier" ... just asking but, is "everyone" really satisfied w/ a spread from high to low in ea. class being between 6 - 17 sec. ( majority of classes were 6, 7, 8 sec. ) ... is this considered close and all attributed to the variation in "driver" and not equipment/points .... also, know a few that have spent some pretty big $$ to be competitive in their respective class, that may be offset by those that saved but, that just means there is still a big gun / a racer who can max the class rules ...... so are they all really happy ? and did we gain anything overall ( more participation, more TT guys. more something ) ?

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by paultg » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:21 pm

McMahonRacing wrote:So ... Touring is "all fixed" and "everyone is much happier" ... just asking but, is "everyone" really satisfied w/ a spread from high to low in ea. class being between 6 - 17 sec. ( majority of classes were 6, 7, 8 sec. ) ... is this considered close and all attributed to the variation in "driver" and not equipment/points .... also, know a few that have spent some pretty big $$ to be competitive in their respective class, that may be offset by those that saved but, that just means there is still a big gun / a racer who can max the class rules ...... so are they all really happy ? and did we gain anything overall ( more participation, more TT guys. more something ) ?
I think it's probably too early to tell at this point, but I am a part of it as a ST4 car formally and mid-pack finisher last year. I made no performance changes to my car from last year (just a seat + belts), now a T40 car. The top ST4 cars from last year are now in T50 with more competition than last year, and I now have much more of a chance to be a top finisher in T40 (again, with no car changes, and my car is only 46 points, i could do minor changes and change tires and be very competitive for short money).
I'm still having as much fun as I did last year, and honestly the TT are now much more fun and complex, because any mistake really impacts the results with so many folks so close in times.

Some of the guys in ST4 last year are now in T30 (talk about a difference in car prep compared to T50), and are having their own competition for top spots now.
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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by McMahonRacing » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:26 pm

T40 was actually a 10 sec. spread +/- ....... I assume this put you mid field, a nice spot w/ a good chance of moving up esp. w/ the spread being in the 1-2 sec. range up front ..... the real point here is what about the car 10 sec. back, does he/she have a real chance ( ie: like the old ST4 ) ..... not in T myself, so have to look to others to judge the acceptability of a 10 sec. / lap spread ..... can only comment that 10 sec. / lap is in my mind allot to gain ( yes, the first 1/2 of the field is tight bit there is still a bottom just like before just w/ less #'s ) or am I missing something ?

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by PaddyMcP » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:40 pm

Pat, I'm not calling touring a brilliant success and all the members are happy. I'm saying the folks who were negatively effected by the old sp and st rules (like a SM being bumped all the way to PC and never given a chance to run at the front or the car enthusiast who comes with a carbon hood and and gets bumped.) This is the specific issue that pete's talking about that has been fixed.

No headliner in your 1988 VW golf? The guy gets booted straight to some prepared class and crushed.

Anti lift kit in your subaru? The guy gets booted straight to some prepared class and crushed.

This let's the club be receptive to new members coming from the enthusiast culture where these street car mods are all over the place. This gives us a chance to keep members that try it out and see they can run at the front with some practice.

We used to see a car in tech, tell them their one stupid modification bumped them to SP and they needed to show up with a roll bar, harnesses and a fire suit at their next event. They would potentially get a "waiver" to run with COM this event because the stewards knew it was ridiculous. This could be a car that would easily run in one of the slowest classes available today. This has been fixed, people are happy about it - that is a fact.

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by paultg » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:39 pm

McMahonRacing wrote:T40 was actually a 10 sec. spread +/- ....... I assume this put you mid field, a nice spot w/ a good chance of moving up esp. w/ the spread being in the 1-2 sec. range up front ..... the real point here is what about the car 10 sec. back, does he/she have a real chance ( ie: like the old ST4 ) ..... not in T myself, so have to look to others to judge the acceptability of a 10 sec. / lap spread ..... can only comment that 10 sec. / lap is in my mind allot to gain ( yes, the first 1/2 of the field is tight bit there is still a bottom just like before just w/ less #'s ) or am I missing something ?
For my NHMS1 2013 TT, i ran my 2nd best lap of the weekend on my first timed lap, and missed 3rd gear going up the hill on the other two :( , so I do feel that I have a very good chance of being competitive this year at the events I attend, especially if I switch to Sm6s like the rest top cars.

With that said, I'm not sure I totally follow where you are going with your comment. Personally I don't think your assessment of the "spread" is totally fair; the rules were revised to help increase competition and car classing (see Paddys post) which as far as I can tell has been accomplished in many touring classes. The rules can never make every driver or car competitive, not all the cars are built identically nor with the same driving abilities. The folks significantly off pace in T40 in your example still have a better chance now than they did in ST4 with 15 or so more cars (at a higher prep level) in class (say move T50 back with T40).

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by Jimmy Pet » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:49 pm

eastcoastbumps wrote: It may not be as apparent at the away events, but if you come to a NHMS event where there are bigger fields in SP and P it becomes more noticeable. The majority of people in Prepared have not built their car to run in Prepared. They build it for the sake of building it or they have built it to run somewhere else and they get caught in the 'catch all' that is Prepared or Street Prepared. This works out well if you get 'caught' into the pointy end of the class, but for the majority in Prepared and Street Prepared, it does not work out so well. Prior to the new Touring rules, a Spec Miata was in PC. The butter knife of PC. I call that broken...

The SPC, SPB and SPC NHMS track records are within half a second of each other. The PC, PB and PA records are also within half second of each other. Prior lap times and records are no reason to combine classes or reclass cars, but it goes to show you that C, B, and A are more paper, scissors, rock than knife, sword, gun.
Woah,,, woah,,, woah,,,
So your proposal is to change an entire class philosophy for the most unlimited build cars in the club,,, based around the bottom of the spectrum cars who were bumped into it by an arcane rule like a headliner or carpet?
Why not just change that wording in the rules,,, and get rid of arcane bumping points,,, not,,, dissect and fundamentally change an entire class for the low end of the spectrum

The nature of the new T rules has fixed your perceived portion of the problem. None of those Spec Miatas will be bumped into Prepared,,, so now we have the perfect reason to LEAVE PREPARED ALONE.

Dont penalize the guys who actually have cars at the pointy end of the class for all those who were "bumped" into it.
Fix the reason for the silly bumps,,,, not,,, penalize the guys who actually have Prepared class cars.
That thinking is really what is broken, not the Prepared rules.

Lap times are a function of car and driver,,, and should not ever factor into classing.
Car preparation alone determines class.
Drivers are drivers, they are meat puppets when cars get classed.
The comparison of the lap times across the Prepared classes means nothing. It just means who and what showed up on any given day.
It should not be used as a benchmark to dismantle a class based around an open ruleset when you have people competing in it who like the open ruleset.

The fact that silly codicils in the rules bumped some under prepared cars into a class made for unlimited prep does not make the class philosphy broken. Fix the silly codicil in the rules.

It blows my mind that the memo may not have been fully circulated that Prepared class is a class for actual fully Prepared competition cars.
Yes, if you show up with a street Miata with only part of the preparation done to make it a full on competition car,,, yep you are going to get crushed in PC.
Go back to your garage and finish your "Race Car".
Show up with an F Production Miata that weighs 2100lbs and has 12:1 compression race engine and a dog ring race trans running on race slicks,,, yep,,, you will run really well in PC.

I am not fighting for my (or anyones) perceived place at the pointy end of my class.
I "am" fighting for the openess of the class to remain just that so that what is done to the car,,, within those very basic parameters that exist now,,, never has to factor in to what other types of cars and power plants we compete against.
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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by blazer178 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:50 pm

Jimmy I can not agree more........ if it is not broke do not try to fix it....... like I said I enjoy doing the track stuff but I did not build my truck just for COM and yes I know what I am up against when I come to COM . I do not want to do or have to change things on my truck so I can fit into a class....... I like it the way it is for prepared A

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by McMahonRacing » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:15 am

Well .... if nothing else I suspect we can all agree to disagree :), seems that is how it went last year as well.

Please remember, I no longer have a car in this debate ( other than say Dad's ) so the only things I am pointing out are from reality and simply things to ponder as you all go forward.

Paul -- I very simply too the fastest & slowest lap in TT and found the variance between them ..... I did this across all the classes and found the spread to be between 6 - 17 sec, specifically in T40 it was 10 sec top to bottom, not sure what # your car is but I assumed you were mid pac. & mid pac. up was I think only separated by 1-2 sec. max., hence the big spread to the bottom of that class .... so the new rules only separated the larger ST4 class ( ie: takes a mid pac. ST4 and makes it a top of the pac. T40 car --- I am making an assumption a I never followed the ST4 classes and need to deffer to others )........ only asking if overall the T40 class w/ a spread of 10sec. top to bottom was seen by all as being better or essentially being the same.

The simplicity of Preppard A, B, C is fine w/ me, I think the problem comes when you try to move SPA/B/C into it ...... personally, I don't care what I run against, bottom line for me is the sorted results and who is the fastest overall ( me or my rabbit ) ..... I essentially detuned for NASA & don't like it, when I get some extra cash I will run my big motor again and bump up to ST1 ( w/ COM following the proposed rules from 2013 this ought to put me in SU, pretty funky for a street legal track toy ).

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by Stynger » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:05 am

This is a great conversation.
P is the only class I've ever been in since running with COM.
I totally get it. I like the freedom to do whatever I want on the car. When I bring my T50 Miata to an event, I run in PC because I can't be bothered with all that paper work for T. :)

My thoughts:

SP should be phased out this year. Car silhouette, lights, dashboard, kit cars etc is a joke.
I'm thinking PC, PB, PA. and FP. Everything is free, Minimum safety requirements, any tire.

The kicker as I see it is how to divide the classes.

I see some merit in HP/trq/weight ratios.

For example, an under powered V8 could run with a full blown NA 4 cylinder in PB. A 4-500 HP turbo 4 could compete with a 10 cylinder Viper in PA.

I think it would provide great competition and still have the freedom to be creative with your car.

The details will be in the cut off points for each class. In P right now we have no choice, for the most part people are happy, let's level the field a little and get some real competition.
The only complaints I envision is the guy at the sharp end of his class. Step it up, try running with like performing cars. When you win it will be so much sweeter (ask the T guys).

Obviously my T50 Miata won't benefit much from this, but, It would be nice not to have to run against Fred's BMW. :shock:

We are not going to have a class for every car, nor will everybody be happy, but we can try to make the limited classes we have, have some fairness to them. I think that is what the folks in Touring feel. They have some control on where there car runs and the decisions they make can be performance and or strategic.

P cars want to run what they brung, let's see who is the best driver/builder at their performance level.
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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by jlwhorf » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:53 am

I like the P classes the way that they are. I know that I have not been able to run with COM the last couple of years, but before that I have been running them since '03. It is nice that car classification is not much more difficult than counting the number of spark plugs.

I have looked closely to the Super class rule set last fall, and like the idea that I could play with the tune of the engine and the weight of the chassis, in order to change classes. This brings up the situation that every competitor must scale and dyno their cars. Dyno time is both expensive and time consuming, and without scales, a flat floor, and (since I gave my lead collect to Pat) no balast. For me, at trip the Dyno is about the same expense and effort as a trip to the track. I'd much rather get in a track day.
McMahonRacing wrote: bottom line I am a mid/bottom of the pack car in the NE, maybe if I build a new motor to better maximize the rules ( torque is free and you need allot to move a barn door ) @ a cost of about $10K or simply pray for rain or run stickers for ea. race in any case making up the 4-6 sec differential is going to be very tough & expensive ......... this is reality
Sad to say, but in racing, it is all about cubic dollars. With all the other factors the same; in order to run up front, the only option is to run the same rubber as the fastest competitor does.

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by Jimmy Pet » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:20 pm

Stynger wrote:This is a great conversation.
P is the only class I've ever been in since running with COM.
I totally get it. I like the freedom to do whatever I want on the car. When I bring my T50 Miata to an event, I run in PC because I can't be bothered with all that paper work for T. :)
My thoughts:
SP should be phased out this year. Car silhouette, lights, dashboard, kit cars etc is a joke.
I'm thinking PC, PB, PA. and FP. Everything is free, Minimum safety requirements, any tire.
I agreed with this post,,, right up until...
Here...
Stynger wrote:The kicker as I see it is how to divide the classes.
I see some merit in HP/trq/weight ratios.
For example, an under powered V8 could run with a full blown NA 4 cylinder in PB. A 4-500 HP turbo 4 could compete with a 10 cylinder Viper in PA.
I think it would provide great competition and still have the freedom to be creative with your car.
Now you have completely changed the Prepared formula.
May as well start from scratch.
Now you have installed parameters that install class change bumps. You have 100% changed the class philosophy.
Stynger wrote:The details will be in the cut off points for each class. In P right now we have no choice, for the most part people are happy, let's level the field a little and get some real competition.
The only complaints I envision is the guy at the sharp end of his class. Step it up, try running with like performing cars. When you win it will be so much sweeter (ask the T guys).
I could not disagree more with this part.
We are already in with like performing cars,,, 4 cylinders against 4 cylinders, 6s vs. 6s, 8s vs. 8s..
If a car is not Prepared to the pointy end of the class it should NOT be equalised to be there.
The current class philosphy works. That is until you start pitching the little league everyone gets a trophy equalizers into it.
Stynger wrote:Obviously my T50 Miata won't benefit much from this, but, It would be nice not to have to run against Fred's BMW. :shock:
We are not going to have a class for every car, nor will everybody be happy, but we can try to make the limited classes we have, have some fairness to them. I think that is what the folks in Touring feel. They have some control on where there car runs and the decisions they make can be performance and or strategic.
P cars want to run what they brung, let's see who is the best driver/builder at their performance level.
The Touring philosophy is fine for Touring.
If you install any dyno / weight formulas into Prepared,,, now you have installed possible change points for the class.
There is no way an underprepared Miata "should" have anywhere competitive to run in Prepared. Its not a fully Prepared competition car. Its a Touring car.
Dont backslide the whole Prepared class because of cars dumped into it that are not fully Prepared competition cars.
Jimmy P
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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by McMahonRacing » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:33 am

Les ....... Are you sure about this:

" I'm thinking PC, PB, PA. and FP. Everything is free, Minimum safety requirements, any tire. " ..... nothing for nothing but "P" should in reality be the faster set of cars, the most highly prepared cars and thus I would think should carry the most safety equipment ??

Jonathan ...... again thanks very much for the weight, what isn't in the car is sitting in a very safe place w/your name on it, any time you need it back you just let me know :), yes it is all about $$$ but I think if I can get a few things straightened out I can get this low budget operation up to maybe a 4-5th place car w/ consistency in ST2 ( again depending on who shows )

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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by Stynger » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:43 am

I mean there has to be minimum standards (bars, belts, seats etc).
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Re: PA or T100 for my street V8 RX-7, rules gripes...

Post by dradernh » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:41 am

Jimmy Pet wrote:We are already in with like performing cars,,, 4 cylinders against 4 cylinders, 6s vs. 6s, 8s vs. 8s..
I think classing like-performing cars is a good idea. At this time, however, PB is not a class made up of like-performing six-cylinder cars. It's not designed for like-performing six-cylinder cars, but for any six-cylinder car, which range today from around 160 RWHP to somewhere north of 350 RWHP.

I think of like-performing cars as cars with like-performance potential, and that that leads to classes based generally upon HP-to-weight, which seems to be the convention in organizations trying to create close competition. That shouldn't stop COM members in Prepared/Super classes from doing whatever they want with their cars, understanding that if you drop 100# and/or add 30 HP you might find that you've moved from one class of cars to another - one with like-performance potential. That's the group with which I'd like to be classed.
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