Anybody else planning on running their cars on Street tires?

[StephanAlfa]

Nick and other COM members:
Can you then add more comments and feedback between Hankook RS-3 vs others ex: Kumho XS and Bridgestone RE-11?
I always liked Kumho because they give you grip all the way down to the last possible thread but this experience is mostly on Race DOT tires.
I also had Hankook (race DOT) and they were great up to a point after a number of heat cycles then took a nose dive.

Feedback be great to determine best selection.

[DanDarcy]

It seems that if these new " street " tire compounds are capable of 2:13 at WGI and 1:17 at NHMS C-C there should be more than just a 1 point add. Maybe more like 3-4 point add. After all we want to make it as fair as possible for all cars and tire combinations.

[Brendan]

It seems that if these new " street " tire compounds are capable of 2:13 at WGI and 1:17 at NHMS C-C there should be more than just a 1 point add. Maybe more like 3-4 point add. After all we want to make it as fair as possible for all cars and tire combinations.

You can't say that based on that amount of data - lap times don't mean squat unless you're comparing different tires on the same car with the same driver under similar conditions. You need to look at relative times, not absolute.

[Dtangard]

Some comments against the new rules are illogical IMO. The new touring points system allows competitors to strategize where they use their points. If a competitor is at the low end of a class on R compounds, it might make sense for them to run on street tires and compete at the top of a lower class (especially if there is a cost savings). Also for the same amount of points a competitor could run street tires and several modifications instead of R comps, it's all up to the competitor. In my case, I'm still going to run Hoosiers because I think they are worth the extra points.

I am a definite supporter of the new rules because of the strategy involved in planning your modifications. I'm choosing my modifications based on what will give me the most bang for my (points and $$$) buck. If a person wants to remove modifications from their car to run in a lower class they have every right to do so. It all comes down to strategy and driving.

That's my 2 cents...

[savage217]

It seems that if these new " street " tire compounds are capable of 2:13 at WGI and 1:17 at NHMS C-C there should be more than just a 1 point add. Maybe more like 3-4 point add. After all we want to make it as fair as possible for all cars and tire combinations.

Well that depends on the car, driver's balls, etc. Their are a lot of factors involved. Hoosiers are still over 4 seconds faster I would say at WGI alone. I am probabaly getting a little overly confident when I say 1:17 c/c. Mid- low 18's should be feasible with my setup though based on the fact I ran a 1:19.0 at the last NHMS event on a damp track, sliding through turn 1. This thread does not reflect my dislike for the new rules, in fact I love the new rules and am very excited for this year.

One thing I think everyone who has run street tires and race tires can agree upon is the braking confidence you get on race tires versus streets, it's night and day. Street tires do get overwhelmed by the race pads so you need to adjust your modulation and pressure/brake points accordingly.

Also for the guy running 340 treadwear Bridgestones, those are not an elite street tire. 1:15 is no way achievable at NHMS c/c in your car on those tires either. Are you sure you aren't talking about the configuration using the oval?

I have run Dunlop Star specs, Hankook RS3's and Yokohoma AD08 street tires. Out of all of those elite tires, the RS3's are the fastest and most comparable to a R compound tire. The Yoko's wear like Iron and are awful under braking. They have stiff side walls, and squirmy tread in my opinion. I never felt super confident on them when using them on track.

The Dunlop Star specs are a great tire but are definitely more of an autox tire. I used to run these in the 2011 season as my daily driven/track/autox tire of choice. They were quick on track but overheated a lot quicker compared to an RS3. They are far superior in the rain compared to the RS3, which is awful. Also Star Specs are fast down to the cords, I cannot say how the Rs3's are when they get that low because this is my first set.

I have not driven on the RE11 or Xs, both are also apart of the elite street tires. I have heard good things from both, other than the XS' are terrible in rain. I believe tire rack compared the RE11's, XS', Star specs, Yoko's, and one other elite tire and the RE11's won the overall best tire choice.

This year Bridgestone has a new tire out called "Rival." It sounds like it may be the fastest street tire yet. I believe Jon Cowen will be getting a set once he goes through his RS3's and I will most likely follow suit, assuming he agrees that they are the way to go.

[6PAK72]

FWIW: You can laugh at this one.

This summer I ran Bridgstone COMP T/A 205/50/R16 on my Mercury Sable 3.0L 24v automatic at WGI and ran mid-2:20's on a warm but not hot day, being fairly sane about it. Artesinger broke through 2:20.

The most noticable thing is that air pressure is critical. The first run out I felt a lot of roll over at 32psi cold, and the tires came in after 20 minutes only at 36psi - small gain.

Second run I went out at 36psi warmed but not hot, and they came in at 39, and the roll over was much less.

Third run I bumped them again, and they were very happy at 41psi hot. Just a tiny bit of front end plow, but no roll over.

Grip was really excellent, with a very progressive break away at speed, much like the RA1. Slip angle was probably 3-4 degrees..??. Turn-in was a little mushy compared to RA1 and R6's but hey, look at the sidewall profile.

[joncowen]

If anyone is looking to buy an elite (per nick) street tire, WAIT! There are some exciting tires coming out.

The new Dunlop Z2 has had a lot of press. Then, the BF Goodrich Gforce Rival showed up (due out by May), and it looks amazing. Supposedly, it is built like a race tire, but with elite street tire grip. The point isn't just to make them faster, but to make them more consistent, more durable to track/autocross use, and more forgiving to drive.

I believe Bridgestone is coming out with a replacement for the RE11, but i haven't heard much about it yet.

The best option is to wait until people have time on the new tires to review them. Traditionally, certain street tires are great on light cars, but bad on heavy cars. So, if you can wait, i think that's the way to go.

As Nick mentions, and i agree, tires like Hoosiers are almost cheating. I feel that they forgive many mistakes. Nick has LOTS of practice on street tires. I think someone used to a Hoosier would take some time to get used to getting the most out of a street tire.

I think that the points for a race tire are still a little low compared to a street tire. How many points is 1 second worth (per 60 second lap time)? If you could quantify that, then quantify how much faster a hoosier R6 is compared to a Hankook RS3, i think you would find that the race tires should carry even more points. However, i think the current setup is a great start. I'm very excited for the new rules.

[breakaway500]

"As Nick mentions, and i agree, tires like Hoosiers are almost cheating.."

Is this really the mindset some of you have?? Holy crap..I guess I am really confused...and disgusted.

Unless you are racing in a Spec tire class,and Hoosiers are not allowed,calling any tire "cheating" is UTTER IGNORANCE.

Saying that race tires "hide" mistakes is also pure bullshit.

Until you reach the level of performance where you need the absolute best tires possible, you will never understand.

They make RACE tires for a damn good reason,not because they make you a "better" driver...but because they allow you to drive faster with more control.

Everyone who wants to go as fast as possible understands just how important tire selection is to achieve this goal.

If you want to handicap your on track performance driving on inferior tires,that is your choice. I may not understand it,but there is much I don't understand in life.

[savage217]

"As Nick mentions, and i agree, tires like Hoosiers are almost cheating.."

Is this really the mindset some of you have?? Holy crap..I guess I am really confused...and disgusted.

Unless you are racing in a Spec tire class,and Hoosiers are not allowed,calling any tire "cheating" is UTTER IGNORANCE.

Saying that race tires "hide" mistakes is also pure bullshit.

Until you reach the level of performance where you need the absolute best tires possible, you will never understand.

They make RACE tires for a damn good reason,not because they make you a "better" driver...but because they allow you to drive faster with more control.

Everyone who wants to go as fast as possible understands just how important tire selection is to achieve this goal.

If you want to handicap your on track performance driving on inferior tires,that is your choice. I may not understand it,but there is much I don't understand in life.

When I said Fresh Hoosiers are like cheating I meant that they have so much grip it's amazing. Obviously they aren't cheating I am just saying in comparison to Hoosiers with 12+ heat cycles it's very confidence inspiring driving on them because their is soooo much grip.

I can't speak for Jon so I will let him address his remarks. My take on race tires is that nobody should ever start on them. It's my belief that everybody should begin on street tires and learn how a car reacts/handles with less grip, get to the potential of the car/tire and then move on to race tires.

[breakaway500]

When did we start talking about students and tire selection? Aren't you guys licensed?? I also didn't see the word "fresh" in any of the posts about Hoosiers.

And,yes,nice sticky tires are very confidence inspiring,which allows you to push your limits a little further...a little faster...something this new points system seems to discourage,because you will then be in another "class"...and won't be..."competitive".

I always am looking for any way possible to be a little faster every time I go to a track,and if it means running a better tire and bumping into a different "class" so be it. I really don't understand the whole concept about limiting what you can do to your car just so you can stay in a specific class and possibly win a trophy.

[jeffw]

As Nick mentions, and i agree, tires like Hoosiers are almost cheating. I feel that they forgive many mistakes. Nick has LOTS of practice on street tires. I think someone used to a Hoosier would take some time to get used to getting the most out of a street tire.

John: do you have any experience driving on Hoosiers?

While a full-race tire like the Hoosier may give you more ultimate grip, I feel they are less forgiving of mistakes because once you push them too far their grip falls off quite quickly and without much warning compared to a lesser tire like the toyo RA1 or Nitto NT01.

It's much easier to get yourself into a spin or worse on a Hoosier.

Also, Hoosiers tend to require much less slip angle, and if you slide them excessively they'll go off much quicker. A Toyo RA1 works best with almost double the slip angle of a Hoosier.

[paultg]

This thread has taken quite the turn.

I'll just say that I think some on here are too focused and missing the big picture, of course this is just my opinion. Not every member has the ability to run a 2nd set of race tires. I'd be interested to see how many event attendees actually run practice and TT on street rubber vs. race rubber, including students. I suspect it will be a good percentage of the total on street rubber.

As much as members will say; "I only run street tires and am here for the fun and to improve my skills"; we are all competitive (it seems to be the nature of this hobby). I think the new rules will only help draw new members in who might have been discouraged due to lack of competitiveness, maybe those folks actually do the TT day instead of day 1 only, and also encourage more members to attend additional events/season, as they have more of a chance at the season results with the rule set.

At least I hope that is the case.

Paul G.

[cfossum]

Yes, I'll be flogging street tires when I run my street car. To me, the fun is finding the limits of adhesion and then riding that threshold. Its a given truth that race tires can develop more grip, but I find it most rewarding to learn the line where I can achieve the maximum available traction with whatever equipment I have at the time. I don't care if it's faster or slower than someone else on different equipment. Of course, passing a Lotus with a crapbox Lemons RX7 is fun too.
-Carl

[joncowen]

Whoa. Next time i will try to choose my words more carefully, or not post at all.

I don't mean anyone is cheating. I don't think that they are more forgiving at the limit. I just feel like they offer so much grip, it feels like cheating. Confidence inspiring, maybe that's what i was looking for. I'd love to be able to drive on fresh Hoosiers all the time. If i had the means, i probably would. But why should i be forced to, just to compete?

What i am so happy about is that the new rule set gives people opportunity to make their own choices, and still have the opportunity to compete.

[StephanAlfa]

As Nick mentions, and i agree, tires like Hoosiers are almost cheating. I feel that they forgive many mistakes. Nick has LOTS of practice on street tires. I think someone used to a Hoosier would take some time to get used to getting the most out of a street tire.

John: do you have any experience driving on Hoosiers?

While a full-race tire like the Hoosier may give you more ultimate grip, I feel they are less forgiving of mistakes because once you push them too far their grip falls off quite quickly and without much warning compared to a lesser tire like the toyo RA1 or Nitto NT01.

It's much easier to get yourself into a spin or worse on a Hoosier.
Also, Hoosiers tend to require much less slip angle, and if you slide them excessively they'll go off much quicker. A Toyo RA1 works best with almost double the slip angle of a Hoosier.

Jeff: I dont think Jon has meant anything about the Hoosiers and cheating, I think it's more of a clear indication that Hoosiers are indeed the faster of the tires most of us have tested.
And I fully agree with you that Hoosiers are significantly less forgiving than others, case in point I opted not to have Hoosiers this past season on my new ride (BMW) after consulting (thank you all) with various BMW drivers and the extra weight and potential slide, Hoosiers were not the "best choice" if you want something to last and be more forgiving.
But I actually like the fact that you can strategize on class selection. All of us are here for the comraderie and not the cheating. This is a great club! We share information - such as this one - and of course calls for some controversy as it is apparent with this trail.
Mark posted an interesting thought here for the students and tire strategy, I normally mention contact patch and other tire definitions but now I can dig further and post a chart - much like in the class selection - on what this all potentially means help them better determine their selection.

I also think everything needs to be proportional and gradual, i.e. no point in having a car with tweaked engine and stock brakes for example (see that, several times) , but wonder in T class if this will have much of an impact, tweaked suspension with stock tires ... this will be then the gating item?