2013 Car Classes

[Stynger]

[kfoote]

Statements like these before we even hit the track and complete a single TT for 2013 are uncalled for. As mentioned earlier tire choice will weigh heavily on the results, and Mick needs to drop down to a RA1 to stay in the T70 class.

In my opinion I think you ought to get used to it, the reason they couldn't figure out how to get "Super" to work is exactly the same, Super classing was just more obvious than it is in Touring .... COM should be preppared to make adjustments thru-out the year for not just NHMS CC & SO but for other tracks that will handicap some cars much much more significanlty than others.

I did quite a bit of research on this for "power" tracks and "handling" tracks, comparing the SCCA track records of "Power" cars versus "handling" cars based on a percentage of lap times. I was unable to get the data for the Canadian tracks, but the percentage of lap time difference among the tracks in the Northeast was a lot closer than I would have expected. NHMS chicaine/chicaine, NHMS South Oval, NJMP Thunderbolt, and NJMP Lightning had almost exactly the same percentage difference in lap times. As one might expect, Watkins Glen is the biggest outlier, significantly favoring the high HP cars. If it wasn't for WG, I would have recommended against the "super C" class proposal, preferring instead to blend them in with Touring. The second biggest outlier, also not a surprise, is Lime Rock, favoring the "handling" cars, though it's about half as favorable to the handling cars as WG is to the power cars. The third biggest outlier, which I did find surprising, is that Summit Point Main actually favors the handling cars, with about 75% of the advantage of Lime Rock.

Being someone who now drives a PB/SB car, I am in favor of the new classing, and I think the reason that people didn't want the change is because they are in the P classes because they don't want to have any rules, and the Super classes require a power:weight ratio be determined that the people in the Super classes didn't want to figure out. If anyone thinks that it's reasonable for a 1979 V6 Mustang that is stock except for not having a passenger's seat and roll bar to be in the same class as a 1200HP Toyota Celica Pike's Peak former overall record holder as is currently the case, I'd love to hear how that makes more sense than going to a power:weight formula.

[DanDarcy]

Paul, I don't think I or Mick have to put a wheel on the track in 2013 to know how our cars are going to perform. Both of us have been doing this awhile and know what our cars will do. You have to understand that I am not against the new rules, but rules are always a work in progress weither they are the new Touring rules or the "Old" rules. Each year the Board of Directors would devote many hours to rules changes and with the "NEW" rules I think it will only be worse. I don't think Mick's BMW and my stock Lotus should be in the same class. In September 2008 Road & Track did their Ultimate Track Test! . They did not use a Lotus Elise but did use a Lotus Exige S. Which has 240 h.p. , 26% more horse power than my Elise, it also has much bigger and better brakes, adjustable shocks, better areo and a whole lot more than my car has. They tested it against a EVO MR and a BMW M3. Both these cars and my Elise are now classed in T70. The Exige (26% more hp) finished last. How do you expect my Elise to compete in T70 if an Exige can't even compete against these other T70 cars ? At the Auto Club Speedway the M3 did 56.39 seconds, the Evo was 57.59 seconds and the Exige was 60.00 seconds, My Elise would probably be 63 seconds. On the Streets of Willow (a tight track favoring the Lotus) both the Exige and the Evo were about the same time and the M3 was a second quicker. I think the car classifications are going to have to be adjusted as we go through the new rules process. I know the Elise is overclassed.

[Dtangard]

What if the elise was modified? The showroom assessment for the elise is 73. The assessment for the E92 M3 is 78.6. Maybe with 6 points worth of well engineered modifications an elise would be competitive with a stock M3 at most tracks (probably not WGI). I agree there will probably need to be some showroom assessment tweaks along the way, but I still strongly believe this is a huge step in the right direction and I look forward to competing next year.

I've never driven an elise (I'd love to ) but I do have seat time in a 2008 M3 and I know they are very fast .

[dradernh]

Being someone who now drives a PB/SB car, I am in favor of the new classing, and I think the reason that people didn't want the change is because they are in the P classes because they don't want to have any rules, and the Super classes require a power:weight ratio be determined that the people in the Super classes didn't want to figure out. If anyone thinks that it's reasonable for a 1979 V6 Mustang that is stock except for not having a passenger's seat and roll bar to be in the same class as a 1200HP Toyota Celica Pike's Peak former overall record holder as is currently the case, I'd love to hear how that makes more sense than going to a power:weight formula.

I don't recall anyone suggesting the current Prepared rules make any particular sense, just that they didn't want them changed. Nor did anyone claim that the rules have necessarily resulted in competitive classes, although PA was competitive in 2012.

[paultg]

Paul, I don't think I or Mick have to put a wheel on the track in 2013 to know how our cars are going to perform. Both of us have been doing this awhile and know what our cars will do. You have to understand that I am not against the new rules, but rules are always a work in progress we either they are the new Touring rules or the "Old" rules. Each year the Board of Directors would devote many hours to rules changes and with the "NEW" rules I think it will only be worse.

Dan, my response was presented because you said the rules had already failed. I don't disagree with you about the knowledge both Mick and yourself have (what the heck do I know afterall).

But:
1. As you indicated, the old and new rules have always had an means of modification through the proposal/voting process; and I think it is a bit short-sided to suggest the new rules will require more hours. It might be true over this first year or two, but that is to be expected with a new system, especially one with which there is much more data involved to determine classification. I believe after some finesse as need this process will go much smoother and be much more clear for all parties involved.

2. Multiple folks have respond to your concerns about your car and suggested how you can proceed to address them.
In my opinion: Posting on this topic in the fashion you have chosen (as a board member/director) isn't the best approach.

Looking forward to the Banquet, thanks for your efforts putting it together! - Paul G.

[chaos4NH]

Paul, Dan is correct in his assessment of the new rules.
Scenario: You used to run our stock daily driver in let's say: SSB. Your new class is, let's say: T50. Instead of running against other SS cars, you are now forced to run against highly modified cars moving up from T30 and T40. So the one theme I kept hearing while the rules were discussed was, well put more into your car to make it more competitive or buy a car suited for the class. Sour grapes, there should remain SS and ST classes to give everyone a place to run and be competitive without breaking the bank as has been "suggested". Just MHO
By the way, both Dan and I state our personal feelings as members and competitors, not members of the Board. No one appreciates the work of the guys on the new rules more that I. However when is it said that we cannot disagree? Let's not turn this club into a politically correct group! LOL.

[McMahonRacing]

Some tidbits from the peanut gallery:

"Club" = fun, enjoyable, economical, a stepping stone for some and just play time for others .....

"Competition" = spend to the limit of the rules, push the envelope, win at all costs, it is "racing" not play time ....

"Preppared" = these were the classes w/o handcuff's, run what ya want & the guy/girl w/ the most money/quality car or air between the ears wins, in most ways a free for all for the tinker'er in some of us ....

"New Rules" = class your car, but be preppared cause the guy who runs at the top of the points or has new rubber will have a big advantage, so want to be competative - spend spend spend ( im my mind kinda againt the general idea of "Club" ) -- variations between tracks, is going to hand some events to specific cars regardless of hp/wt as AERO in bigger than one would think, so want to be competative - spend spend spend ( go by the car best suited to the class, max the points and your there ) ....

Rules are rules, the old rules had their flaws, the new rules have there flaws, those that were happy & content before probabally are not now & those that were discontent before are probabally happy now, rules will never be perfect & some one will always have a percieved/real advantage ... any change is hard esp. for those that have been building to one set only to find the rug pulled out from under their well intentioned plans and a change in direction & budget necessary ..... it may be easier for new memebers coming in to work w/in the rules as they are fresh but, for many of us that have been working w/in the old rules the change can be dramatic, it will eventually pass but it will take time .....

Will certainly be interesting to watch.

[Bobc]

Paul, I don't think I or Mick have to put a wheel on the track in 2013 to know how our cars are going to perform. Both of us have been doing this awhile and know what our cars will do. You have to understand that I am not against the new rules, but rules are always a work in progress we either they are the new Touring rules or the "Old" rules. Each year the Board of Directors would devote many hours to rules changes and with the "NEW" rules I think it will only be worse.

Dan, my response was presented because you said the rules had already failed. I don't disagree with you about the knowledge both Mick and yourself have (what the heck do I know afterall).

But:
1. As you indicated, the old and new rules have always had an means of modification through the proposal/voting process; and I think it is a bit short-sided to suggest the new rules will require more hours. It might be true over this first year or two, but that is to be expected with a new system, especially one with which there is much more data involved to determine classification. I believe after some finesse as need this process will go much smoother and be much more clear for all parties involved.

2. Multiple folks have respond to your concerns about your car and suggested how you can proceed to address them.
In my opinion: Posting on this topic in the fashion you have chosen (as a board member/director) isn't the best approach.

Looking forward to the Banquet, thanks for your efforts putting it together! - Paul G.

Let me see if I can ask this correctly and not piss anyone off.... If I modify our cars to fit the current rules for 2013 and we are then precived to be too fast does that mean we will be reclassified for 2014??? Even if cars meet the points totals of T90... with our tires and expected mods...... what do I do then take stuff off... cause I dont want to show up with cars that don't meet or are damn near the limit of the rules for the class????
Hell we bought these cars to run in COM under the SSU rules now I am getting the feeling that we are going to be shooting at a moving target.
Bob Cairns

[McMahonRacing]

In my opinion ..... I would suspect for at least the next yr/two/three the rules could possibly be a moving target ...... if someone built to the top of the points and they are able to walk all over folks, then I would highly suspect that those mods would be evaluated and “re-pointed” to keep the class competative ..... same could happen w/ base points for some cars ( as Dan & the others have mentioned ) ....... at least I think this is how things should work given the fact that no one really knows what perf. advantage is gained by what mod. or if the base classes are even 100% correct ..... a moving target I would think, will be some time before the dust settles ...... the bigger question is will this be done yearly or will they be able to "react" on the spot ( they do in the professional level w/ restrictors & weight ) ........ as I said, will be interesting to watch .....

[paultg]

Paul, Dan is correct in his assessment of the new rules.

LOL. Ok. I guess I'll just agree to disagree and ask for the same crystal ball you guys seemed to get for Christmas.

Maybe Will&Nate have all the class rules imported into I-racing with our cars; we can go over all these scenarios at the banquet, and have statistical proof/results based on a video game!

[paultg]

With last years or the new rules, if you want to be competitive in a class you are spending some money.

With old rules at a minimum (even in stock class) you need tires. This statement is not true realative to the old rules for the following:
1. Folks in a class by themselves (new rules try to address this).
2. Folks competing against others who can not attend as many events. (Unchanged)

For the rest of us:
The new rules provide more options on where/how to spend money, if you want to spend at all. Not spending doesn't mean you are automatically out of the competition.

Paul G.

[DanDarcy]

Paul;
I have not said the new rules have failed ! Hell I was the board member who made the motion to put the new rules proposal out to the members so they could vote on it and it passed by an overwhelming majority. When I post on the forums, I post as an individual Com member, when I vote on the board I vote for what I feel is best for the club and the members, that's not always whats best for me. When the new rules were proposed, it was touted that it would make more cars competitive, I think it will eventually but it will take some work. In the past many rule changes have not work the way they were intended to and needed revision. A whole new rule set is just the starting point, I'm sure there will be many revisions. For example: My Lotus is a T70 car but is much slower than most people think it should goand slower than most T70 cars. It does not belong in the same class as a 2008 M3. I also have a 2002 Porsche Twin Turbo, this is a T80 car. It should not be in T80 but should be higher. I have owned Z06s both C5 and C6, at WGI the Porsche will annihilate both of the Z06s yet it is classed under the Z06s
As to modifying the Elise----NO!! That becomes a viscous circle. Plus once you start modifying, your reliability goes down and your expenses go way up. I do COM for fun and I hope most of us do it for fun too. The more expensive it gets the less fun it is. The new rules will hopefully make it more fun for more members. In the past we have had many newcomers show up with a completely stock car except for some small modification (like a giant rear wing) that would bump their car all the way up to SP class. This gave them no hope of ever being competitive and lowered their fun factor. The new rules will eliminate this. I see the new rules as positive but I assure you they are a work in progress. Paddy, Pete, Nick, and Chris did a great job and worked on this for years but cars will be moved around and changes will be made.

See you at the Banquet

[paultg]

If the new rule system is supposed too. make cars more equal,it failed, it will need lots of revisions as we go along.

I guess I'm just bad at reading. Sorry for any confusion. - Paul G.

[eastcoastbumps]

Dan, your car (on old R6's) is two classes lower than Mick with fresh V710s. Mick is faster, better prepped, a great driver and in a faster class...I fail to see how this is a mistake.