Post
by jlaugh » Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:09 pm
I really tried to leave this post alone but I just can't, sorry. This is in response to Jimmy P's rebuttal to my post on Sunday, Nov 4th. These were on page 4 of this thread.
Jimmy P wrote "I love competition as well,,, but with "like" cars. Beating or getting beat by a car of completely different makeup be it a corvette or a formula car I could not care less about. I'd rather the measure of like vehicles. Thats what we have now in Prepared.
In the proposed rule set my 4 cylinder BMW competing against something like a Street Stock Z06,,, or a spec racer ford,,, what good is that?
The comparison means nothing as we are not comparing apples to apples. I do not see the good in lumping everything together just because the weight and estimated (and saying estimated is being kind) HP look to be correct on paper."
Ok, first if you stay in the Super class it is very unlikely you will ever have a race Vette in Super B or C. It would have to have an anemic V8 with smog on it to be there. There already is a spec racer in your class PC, don't know if you noticed, and that probably wouldn't change. And no, these people we compete with are real and we have real lap times.
Jimmy P wrote "That has always been the case. Its a 6 cylinder factory race car. Yep,,, its gonna be fast.
If someone shows up with a factory Grp A E30 M3 in PC,,, I'm gonna get spanked. I get that. They built or bought a better mousetrap. I still wouldn't wish that guy to race a 600HP Vette because he got a good car.
Even in pro racing they do not pit sports cars against formula cars. Corvettes dont race against Miatas.
Like cars compete against like cars. In unlimited prep classes the modifier is always displacement. Not someones subjective assessment of what that cars base class is or its HP to Weight ratio. The old standard "There is no replacement for displacement" and "The only substitute for cubic inches is rectangular dollars" still apply.
Even in BMW club racing you are not going to be in the same class as the factory Grp A E30 M3, but you want to be in COM? Doesn't sound fair to me. Look at the succesful Continental sports car challenge; many different cars competing in close racing by tweaking of the base weight and motor mods. Displacement is important; but so is weight, thermal efficiency , etc. Engineers can predict lap times extremely effectively with the right parameters; this is no "subjective assessment of what cars base class is ...." Again, don't confuse the proposed Super rules with Touring; 2 different animals.
Jimmy P wrote" Why change what we have now? We have 4 Prepared classes. Why do they need to be put in a blender?
And why in the world would anyone think its good to meld 7 classes (FP, AP, BP, CP, ASP, BSP, CSP) into 3 or 4?
Makes no sense. I dont see that as fostering better competition. It just means some people are going to get screwed "and" their prep just got more complicated by arbitrary assessments of the "worth" of a particular mod,,, or the very arbitrary assessment of a cars base class and then having to use a calculator to "add up my mods".
Or even worse, an estimate of their HP because we have no way of proving it...
Because putting 7 classes together will mean more competition in 4 classes. The classes can already be thin now and will probably be thinner if the Touring rules go through. Again, Super does not use assesments of mods; it is different. And your worse case of taking several engine parameters is still way more efficient and accurate then displacement alone or number of cylinders alone.
Jimmy P wrote "I dont like it because it ceases to be a run what ya brung, unlimited prep class.
In the proposed revision you have to concern yourself with "if I do this mod,,, does it change my class".
COM Prepared is great "because" as long as you dont weld an extra cylinder onto your engine,,, or put forced induction on,,, you are good to go.
At no point in the classing of my car do I ever want to A) use a calculator or a spreadsheet, B) tell anyone what my car weighs or how much power it makes unless they are a friend and we are shooting the breeze.
It just improves the run what ya brung philosophy as it classes you with cars you are more likely to be competitive with in the unlimited world of sticking any race car imaginable into 4 classes. A steward can class the car for you so you don't have to use the spreadsheet and If I look at your car for 5 minutes I can tell you how much it weighs and how much power is at the crank within 20%. And who cares? we are all car nuts, isn't half the fun talking about this stuff. (By the way I will buy you lunch if I am wrong with my numbers) Also, my car weighs 2380 lbs with me in it and made 260 hp on a Dynojet (wheel) Dyno.
Jimmy P wrote"I dont understand how you can call the current rules set arbitrary and then propose a completely arbitrary method of determining HP or Torque.
The above described may be the most arbitrary method of determining HP I have ever heard proposed.
There is absolutely no science anywhere that can back up "From my days building race motors in a professional shop to all the tweaking I have done over the years I bet could come within 20% of what motors actually make".
Dynos,,, actual dynos have large discrepancies from dyno to dyno brand. How could you possibly hope to get this right? That,,, is arbitrary,,, not the current rule set.
The current Prepared rule set could not be more black and white.
Count the cylinders and put the sticker on. Black and White.
There is nothing arbitrary about the proposed rules that I hope you read when they are ready. It is called science and engineering and I bet it predicts your crank HP 10% low as it is designed to. Chassis dynos do have a large discrepancy from brand to brand, finally something we agree on! However engine Dynos are remarkably similar given the same ancillary devices are being run. Shall we count the lugnuts?
Jimmy P wrote" Again,,, in an unlimited mod class if I want to add an air shifted, paddle triggered sequential I should be able to,,, and so should you,,, or Will, or Brendan, or Fred, or anyone in Prepared. Thats called building a better mousetrap and I applaud it. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone and I would 100% not penalize anyone who did it in an unlimited prep class like Prepared. If people want rules to build to, or limit preparation great, run in Touring.
There are people who enjoy an unlimited rule set (or lack of rules) why take that away from us.
Leave Prepared alone.
If I add a sequential tranny and a 4.0 liter making 150 hp more I would prefer to run with cars of like lap times; so yes, I want to move to PA
Jimmy P wrote:I think my class is plenty interesting. I enjoy it thoroughly as written.
I like that it only has about 4 lines of rules, and I dont need anything more than 4 fingers to see if I am compliant.
Change all the other classes,,, but leave us one class that we can tinker to our hearts content without scales, "estimated" HP or spreadsheets.
What would it hurt to just leave Prepared alone?
You guys can still have the calculator classing for anyone who wants it. Why does the whole club have to follow?
Could you live with 9 lines of rules? I really do want everyone that has competed in P or SP in the last few years or who is planning to compete next year to be happy and continue to come to COM events. Jimmy, I can only find one COM event you attended in the Prepared or Street Prepared classes, Glen this year. Are you planning on doing more next year? I want the competition; looks like you are a little faster and if your numbers are anything like Fast Fred F. E30 then you should be in SuperB with me. Let's have some competition for 2nd and 3rd!
James L
85 911 SPB
70 914 PB