New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

[bhoss]

Agree completely!

See the first two pages of this thread andmost of the rules thread - It perfectly matches this quote:

"I have yet to ever read or be involved in a 'dyno' discussion that didn't melt down into a holy war, let alone one that simply ended well. I am concerned that dynos, whether required or not, and scales (to a lesser extent), will fundamentally change the culture in our paddock (which I think is pretty fricken' awesome today!)."

AMEN

[Grippy]

So it's settled then! Finally.

[WillM]

So it's settled then! Finally.

? I'm not sure I follow. Don't think anything has been 'settled'...?
Unless there is a joke in there that I missed, witch* seems to happen more than occasionally.

* Happy Halloween everyone!

[Bobc]

I know of 2 cars in SS that are more than happy with the current rules

[jlwhorf]

I have just recently explored the new rule set, mostly because my wifes computer is the only one a new version of office. I ran the spread sheet with numbers from my red devil, and it puts it in Super A, I would not touch the set up on that car anyway. I did have some fun with the Monte Carlo; when I ran the numbers and assuming a realistic HP number because I have never dynoed it, it returned Super Unlimited. I can put the car on scales and add some lead that would give better weight distribution numbers, and put in the lighter side on Super A.

[nateh]

If someone feels like they can't be competitive in their Spec Miata under the current rules, then all they have to do is reinstall their carpet and catalytic converter and run in ST4.

Top ST4s are running a lot of engine and suspension mods that are illegal in SM.

[jlaugh]

I am jumping in kind of late here I do realize.. was out of the Country and I apologize for what is probably going to be long-winded. Not sure if this is the best place to place this post or if the original thread would be better. (Maybe someone could post to best place if this in not it?) This regards the new Super Class rules. I think there is a way to tweak the new rules and have it work for Prepared and those Street Prepared folks that wouldn’t be moving to a touring class and therefore required to run in Super. I also think there have been some mistakes made when people are calculating their Super class points values from the spreadsheet as weight correction does not get entered correctly giving you a much lower value.; and this tends to freak people out (I am in the same class as a Formula Continental!??) I for one made the mistake and was thrown by this.

For me, and I think it applies to many others, I love having competition in my class. I would much rather have a trophy for fourth, less then a second off the winning time, then just win the class with maybe one other car way behind. Getting more people in these prepared classes with more of a power/weight ratio to shoot for would help this. One season maybe ten years ago at several events, we had the top 3 cars in SPB separated by .005 sec., not a typo. Somehow a Dodge Omni, Porsche 911, and 240Z driven to the limit were nearly identical. Yes, the Omni beat my 911….

The Prepared classes are what they are, and we accept that. But they are by no means fair. These days you can go buy a used 996 GT3 cup car (manual tranny, they were not sequential) for $70k and if you learn how to drive it properly turn a 1:57 at the Glen or a 1:05 at NHMS So Oval/ 1:09 Chc/Chc. The car fits perfectly in PB. Similar examples can be made for the other 3 classes.
What if the new rules were such that (I know there was already discussion on this) there were 4 super classes and everyone that currently runs Prepared (and Street Prepared folks that don’t fit in touring) ended up in essentially their same class? FP cars end up in Super U, PA and SPA (that don’t fit in Touring) end up in Super A, and same for Super B and C. By tweaking the numbers for cut offs in the new classes to: SU under 6.5, SA 6.5, SB 9.0, SC 12.5 I think we come close to that. So far the numbers I have run estimating 8 or so competitors weights and horsepower achieve that goal and everyone essentially stays where they are. Wouldn’t everyone be happy if that goal was achieved? If you don’t stay where you are and are willing to share your numbers, let me know, I would be very curious. Again, make sure you put the correct weight correction number in, (my spreadsheet does not do it automatically as I thought it did). So here are the details for my proposal/tweaks to the new rules for the 4 super classes (not 3) with cutoffs of SU under 6.5, SA> 6.5, SB >9, SC >12.5:
• The horsepower torque issues is probably the biggest problem for Super class, right? How about we have a formula for determining horsepower from engine displacement, configuration (example: inline turbo 4), valves per cylinder, spark plugs per cylinder, race gas or pump, and RPM at rev limit. From my days building race motors in a professional shop to all the tweaking I have done over the years I bet could come within 20% of what motors actually make (except for rotaries, not a lot of experience there); and I don't consider myself an expert. Point is you get a couple of pros together and you could come up with some good formulas. I can help with the air-cooled 6. Then you convert to wheel power/torque using a standard number (maybe 15% for transaxle, 18% for driveshaft, 20% for 4 wheel drive). Everyone gets the same number so no whining about what the value really is. Then here is a possible addition: If someone wants they can provide a dyno sheet at crank or at wheels (maybe encourage people to use one type of Chassis Dyno such as the Dynojet, but not mandatory). So this could work for the case where the formula shows someone should be making 400hp/ 400 ft-lb torque but they built a really reliable motor that runs on 91 octane and has stock cams and their motor only makes 350hp/350 ft-lb. They are pissed that they didn't spend the money or are almost required to have a less reliable motor to be competitive; and this changes an entire class for them. So they have the ability to provide a dyno sheet and are good to go. As far as fairness and cheating go: Yes, people will fib about their displacement or maybe rev limit. (I believe you can check fuel type in fuel cell easily so you could do that when car is classified.) Or maybe someone would actually go to the Chassis Dyno and do a 3/4 throttle run just to be reclassified. But whatever; it is still a way more fair way to classify the Prepared cars then just the current arbitrary rules.
• Weight. I think most people know the weight of their race car, themselves and helmet: put it in the formula. The club can invest in a set of scales and if people think it should be required (I do personally) weigh the podium cars in the 4 Super classes. Takes 2 minutes per car. (Think of the crap you can give the guy you just beat by .005 in line for the scales.)
• I would like to see a tweak to adjust for a sequential gearbox. In PCA club racing it moves you an entire class. Not suggesting that much penalty, but at least a small bump in points.

The guys put in some serious time on these new rules and I think it can make the club even more interesting. I would like to see Super pass as well as touring. By the way can we repoll the Super class people taking into account the 4 class tweaks and cutoffs? I never responded to the first poll because I hadn’t even seen the rules yet; and wasn’t aware there was a second?
Thanks for listening

[nateh]

I would much rather have a trophy for fourth, less then a second off the winning time, then just win the class with maybe one other car way behind.

I absolutely agree. This is an essential element of improved competition.

Thanks for contributing your thoughtful comments, James.

[WillM]

Great post James! You eloquently stated the same desire I've heard from other SP/P drivers; the ability to 'map over' from their current SP/P class to a similar 'Super' class, and t

It is great to have a growing number current of SP and P drivers add their voice to this important discussion.

[Jimmy Pet]

I guess there are (at least) two sides to every outlook on any given situation or proposal,,, and I guess we are really seeing the situation from polar opposite viewpoints.
I'll offer my personal counterpoints. I dont wish to attack or start an argument,,, but I couldn't have a more opposing view to most of the points offered.

For me, and I think it applies to many others, I love having competition in my class. I would much rather have a trophy for fourth, less then a second off the winning time, then just win the class with maybe one other car way behind. Getting more people in these prepared classes with more of a power/weight ratio to shoot for would help this

I love competition as well,,, but with "like" cars. Beating or getting beat by a car of completely different makeup be it a corvette or a formula car I could not care less about. I'd rather the measure of like vehicles. Thats what we have now in Prepared.
In the proposed rule set my 4 cylinder BMW competing against something like a Street Stock Z06,,, or a spec racer ford,,, what good is that?
The comparison means nothing as we are not comparing apples to apples. I do not see the good in lumping everything together just because the weight and estimated (and saying estimated is being kind) HP look to be correct on paper.

The Prepared classes are what they are, and we accept that. But they are by no means fair.

How are they by no means fair? Please elaborate? All cars have similar engine displacements. In Prepared one can do whatever they want. The measure is cylinders.
I dont get how it is not fair? If one competes in an Unlimited class what makes it not fair?

These days you can go buy a used 996 GT3 cup car (manual tranny, they were not sequential) for $70k and if you learn how to drive it properly turn a 1:57 at the Glen or a 1:05 at NHMS So Oval/ 1:09 Chc/Chc. The car fits perfectly in PB. Similar examples can be made for the other 3 classes.

That has always been the case. Its a 6 cylinder factory race car. Yep,,, its gonna be fast.
If someone shows up with a factory Grp A E30 M3 in PC,,, I'm gonna get spanked. I get that. They built or bought a better mousetrap. I still wouldn't wish that guy to race a 600HP Vette because he got a good car.
Even in pro racing they do not pit sports cars against formula cars. Corvettes dont race against Miatas.
Like cars compete against like cars. In unlimited prep classes the modifier is always displacement. Not someones subjective assessment of what that cars base class is or its HP to Weight ratio. The old standard "There is no replacement for displacement" and "The only substitute for cubic inches is rectangular dollars" still apply.

What if the new rules were such that (I know there was already discussion on this) there were 4 super classes and everyone that currently runs Prepared (and Street Prepared folks that don’t fit in touring) ended up in essentially their same class? FP cars end up in Super U, PA and SPA (that don’t fit in Touring) end up in Super A, and same for Super B and C. By tweaking the numbers for cut offs in the new classes to: SU under 6.5, SA 6.5, SB 9.0, SC 12.5 I think we come close to that.

- Why change what we have now? We have 4 Prepared classes. Why do they need to be put in a blender?
And why in the world would anyone think its good to meld 7 classes (FP, AP, BP, CP, ASP, BSP, CSP) into 3 or 4?
Makes no sense. I dont see that as fostering better competition. It just means some people are going to get screwed "and" their prep just got more complicated by arbitrary assessments of the "worth" of a particular mod,,, or the very arbitrary assessment of a cars base class and then having to use a calculator to "add up my mods".
Or even worse, an estimate of their HP because we have no way of proving it...

So far the numbers I have run estimating 8 or so competitors weights and horsepower achieve that goal and everyone essentially stays where they are. Wouldn’t everyone be happy if that goal was achieved? ... So here are the details for my proposal/tweaks to the new rules for the 4 super classes (not 3) with cutoffs of SU under 6.5, SA> 6.5, SB >9, SC >12.5

I dont like it because it ceases to be a run what ya brung, unlimited prep class.
In the proposed revision you have to concern yourself with "if I do this mod,,, does it change my class".
COM Prepared is great "because" as long as you dont weld an extra cylinder onto your engine,,, or put forced induction on,,, you are good to go.
At no point in the classing of my car do I ever want to A) use a calculator or a spreadsheet, B) tell anyone what my car weighs or how much power it makes unless they are a friend and we are shooting the breeze.

The horsepower torque issues is probably the biggest problem for Super class, right? How about we have a formula for determining horsepower from engine displacement, configuration (example: inline turbo 4), valves per cylinder, spark plugs per cylinder, race gas or pump, and RPM at rev limit. From my days building race motors in a professional shop to all the tweaking I have done over the years I bet could come within 20% of what motors actually make (except for rotaries, not a lot of experience there); and I don't consider myself an expert. Point is you get a couple of pros together and you could come up with some good formulas. I can help with the air-cooled 6. Then you convert to wheel power/torque using a standard number (maybe 15% for transaxle, 18% for driveshaft, 20% for 4 wheel drive). Everyone gets the same number so no whining about what the value really is. Then here is a possible addition: If someone wants they can provide a dyno sheet at crank or at wheels (maybe encourage people to use one type of Chassis Dyno such as the Dynojet, but not mandatory). So this could work for the case where the formula shows someone should be making 400hp/ 400 ft-lb torque but they built a really reliable motor that runs on 91 octane and has stock cams and their motor only makes 350hp/350 ft-lb. They are pissed that they didn't spend the money or are almost required to have a less reliable motor to be competitive; and this changes an entire class for them. So they have the ability to provide a dyno sheet and are good to go. As far as fairness and cheating go: Yes, people will fib about their displacement or maybe rev limit. (I believe you can check fuel type in fuel cell easily so you could do that when car is classified.) Or maybe someone would actually go to the Chassis Dyno and do a 3/4 throttle run just to be reclassified. But whatever; it is still a way more fair way to classify the Prepared cars then just the current arbitrary rules

I dont understand how you can call the current rules set arbitrary and then propose a completely arbitrary method of determining HP or Torque.
The above described may be the most arbitrary method of determining HP I have ever heard proposed.
There is absolutely no science anywhere that can back up "From my days building race motors in a professional shop to all the tweaking I have done over the years I bet could come within 20% of what motors actually make".
Dynos,,, actual dynos have large discrepancies from dyno to dyno brand. How could you possibly hope to get this right? That,,, is arbitrary,,, not the current rule set.
The current Prepared rule set could not be more black and white.
Count the cylinders and put the sticker on. Black and White.

Weight. I think most people know the weight of their race car, themselves and helmet: put it in the formula. The club can invest in a set of scales and if people think it should be required (I do personally) weigh the podium cars in the 4 Super classes. Takes 2 minutes per car. (Think of the crap you can give the guy you just beat by .005 in line for the scales.)

- See answer above,,, I dont want to ever worry or care about what my car weighs, nor do I want anyone else to care about what my car weighs.
Thats why I picked an unlimited class.
In the new format, it ceases to be an unlimited class. If I wanted to worry about prep limitations or rules I'd compete in a different class that has limitations.

I would like to see a tweak to adjust for a sequential gearbox. In PCA club racing it moves you an entire class. Not suggesting that much penalty, but at least a small bump in points

- Again,,, in an unlimited mod class if I want to add an air shifted, paddle triggered sequential I should be able to,,, and so should you,,, or Will, or Brendan, or Fred, or anyone in Prepared. Thats called building a better mousetrap and I applaud it. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone and I would 100% not penalize anyone who did it in an unlimited prep class like Prepared.

If people want rules to build to, or limit preparation great, run in Touring.
There are people who enjoy an unlimited rule set (or lack of rules) why take that away from us.
Leave Prepared alone.

The guys put in some serious time on these new rules and I think it can make the club even more interesting. I would like to see Super pass as well as touring. By the way can we repoll the Super class people taking into account the 4 class tweaks and cutoffs?

I think my class is plenty interesting. I enjoy it thoroughly as written.
I like that it only has about 4 lines of rules, and I dont need anything more than 4 fingers to see if I am compliant.
Change all the other classes,,, but leave us one class that we can tinker to our hearts content without scales, "estimated" HP or spreadsheets.
What would it hurt to just leave Prepared alone?
You guys can still have the calculator classing for anyone who wants it. Why does the whole club have to follow?

[Chrispy]

I love competition as well,,, but with "like" cars. Beating or getting beat by a car of completely different makeup be it a corvette or a formula car I could not care less about. I'd rather the measure of like vehicles. Thats what we have now in Prepared.
In the proposed rule set my 4 cylinder BMW competing against something like a Street Stock Z06,,, or a spec racer ford,,, what good is that?
The comparison means nothing as we are not comparing apples to apples. I do not see the good in lumping everything together just because the weight and estimated (and saying estimated is being kind) HP look to be correct on paper.

That is for the touring rules. It doesn't make much sense for the highly modified race cars to compete in the touring classes, that is why the super classes have been proposed. The only major difference for the new Super classes vs the old cylinder based classes is that it is based on power and weight rather than cylinder count. It would be highly unlikely that you would be competing against any V8's under the Super rules, it would mostly be 4 bangers and maybe a few overweight under powered V6's. Of course this depends on the specifics of your vehicle, but you would be competing with similarly capable vehicles.

Just like Prepared you can mod your car to your hearts content in Super. The only thing to be aware of is if you make dramatic changes to either power or weight that could potentially alter you class.

I think my class is plenty interesting. I enjoy it thoroughly as written.
I like that it only has about 4 lines of rules, and I dont need anything more than 4 fingers to see if I am compliant.
Change all the other classes,,, but leave us one class that we can tinker to our hearts content without scales, "estimated" HP or spreadsheets.
What would it hurt to just leave Prepared alone?
You guys can still have the calculator classing for anyone who wants it. Why does the whole club have to follow?

The rules haven't been voted in yet and according to the schedule that won't happen until the December meeting. It is possible that it gets split if the majority of people in prepared are against the new rules for Super.

Myself, I'm in SPB now in a lightly modified car and have the option to compete in the proposed Super-C with some safety upgrades or compete in one of the touring classes such as T80, T90 or T100, I like the options. I like both proposals, but that's just my personal opinion. They aren't perfect of course, and they are still being worked on.

The revised spreadsheet should be up on the website in the next couple of days, I invite you to try the super calculator again. Just ignore the Touring pages altogether, it's not for you. Everyone respects your opinion, and like you said, there are at least 2 sides to every option.

[Jimmy Pet]

Chris you realise you completely contradicted yourself, which is why I believe that this "Super" rule set is flawed.

That is for the touring rules. It doesn't make much sense for the highly modified race cars to compete in the touring classes, that is why the super classes have been proposed.

Myself, I'm in SPB now in a lightly modified car and have the option to compete in the proposed Super-C with some safety upgrades or compete in one of the touring classes such as T80, T90 or T100, I like the options

Right there you proved that a car can easily move between Touring and "Super" and not be that similar.

The only major difference for the new Super classes vs the old cylinder based classes is that it is based on power and weight rather than cylinder count.

That is a pretty darn major difference. Its 180° of what it is now.

It would be highly unlikely that you would be competing against any V8's under the Super rules, it would mostly be 4 bangers and maybe a few overweight under powered V6's. Of course this depends on the specifics of your vehicle, but you would be competing with similarly capable vehicles.

I disagree completely. It would be easy for that to happen, you just stated it in the quote above. I think it would be quite easy actually for the class to end up with a complete mixed bag of cars.

Just like Prepared you can mod your car to your hearts content in Super. The only thing to be aware of is if you make dramatic changes to either power or weight that could potentially alter you class.

Thats a MASSIVE "only thing to be aware of"... In the current proposal it is entirely possible that my main competition, my good friend Fred Ferguson and I could be split into 2 classes.
Lets say Fred and I are right on the cusp of a proposed class "tipping point",,, we have nearly identical cars, but Fred's car weighs 180 lbs less than mine,,, its possible he could get bumped into another class. Now you have two guys with nearly identical cars, that enjoy competing against each other,,,now in separate classes.
Nothing could ever make me think thats good classing. I'll refrain from typing the word that comes to mind.

Everyone respects your opinion, and like you said, there are at least 2 sides to every option.

And I'm not trying to be the grumpy old curmudgeon saying change is bad.
I "get" there are things people need / want to fix in the SS and ST classes,,, maybe even SP. But those are people that choose to run in limited prep classes.
I get that the FI cars are a burden when bumped into classes above C. Those things can make ungodly HP and really spoil the field. The long used displacement modifier is obsolete.
I did propose to another member that there should be a PFI and put all the Prepared level FI cars into a Prepared FI class.
Prepared is so perfect in its simplicity currently.

The current rules as proposed leave no option for an open class.
Yes the mods are "open" but the consequences are not, there are consequences of making changes to your car that could change your class, thus its not an unlimited prep class.

[dradernh]

I just took a look at the 2012 results for PA, PB & PC. My class, PB, isn't what I would call competitive - there were a grand total of 12 entrants all year with only one of them competing more than twice. Two-thirds of entrants came to a single event. Average winning margin was 3.9 seconds. It's not like there was a lot of suspense if you were running PB this year. The cars have much more differences in capability than they do similarities. Heck, they don't even all have six cylinders.

PC is somewhat different. Slightly larger pool of drivers at 14, and a noticeably larger average winning margin at 5.6 seconds. Five came to one event, another five came to two, and the rest, led by Fred, came to three or more events. Take Fred out, and the average winning margin drops to 2.6 seconds, with or without the high & low margins. Hard to think of that as being competitive, at least if you're using the clock to measure competitiveness. One of the more interesting aspects of this class is that big power four-bangers are summarily ejected.

If there can be said to be competition in the Prepared classes, PA is where it is. The participation profile is similar to PB, and the average winning margin is a much lower 1.7 seconds, rising only to 1.9 seconds if you take out the high & low margins. This was the only class with somewhat close finishes using the stopwatch.

I didn't look at earlier years, so I have no idea if 2012 was representative of Prepared classes results or not.

2012 winning margins were:

PA .4
PA .5
PA 1.1
PA 2.6
PA 3.2
PA 4.4

PB 1.6
PB 3.3
PB 3.3
PB 3.8
PB 7.4

PC 2.9
PC 3.1
PC 3.8
PC 5.0
PC 6.4
PC 7.6
PC 10.5

Given the P2W ranges being proposed for the Super classes, there's likely to be a fairly wide range of cars' capabilities within those classes. Just like now (except PC?). The only way around that is to have lots-n-lots of Super classes, like there are Touring classes. With only eight Prepared drivers coming to more than two events in 2012, that might or might not be much fun.

[Chrispy]

Right there you proved that a car can easily move between Touring and "Super" and not be that similar.

Easily no. Super has safety requires for roll protection, fire etc. I could just as easily elect to run in current PB with these same changes, I could also elect to run in ST1 with a rollback of a single mod that is ST illegal. The SP cars are in the middle and always have been, I don't see that as a contradiction. An SS car isn't going to run in super, nor would they be eligible.

That is a pretty darn major difference. Its 180° of what it is now.

I respectfully disagree. The "intent" of the cylinder based classing was to separate the performance potential of the vehicles so that the big V8's weren't trampling the little 4-cylinders, however the reality of the lap times show that the spread of class records between the prepared A through C to be pretty tight even at the faster tracks. The reality is you can alter the performance potential of any car to be near the top with enough time and money.

I disagree completely. It would be easy for that to happen, you just stated it in the quote above. I think it would be quite easy actually for the class to end up with a complete mixed bag of cars.

If it does happen then it would mean that the cars have equal performance. You can compare lap times to see whether it is fair or not. But not all that unlike now, a race spec Corvette ends up in Super A, and a race spec Miata ends up in Super C.

Thats a MASSIVE "only thing to be aware of"... In the current proposal it is entirely possible that my main competition, my good friend Fred Ferguson and I could be split into 2 classes.
Lets say Fred and I are right on the cusp of a proposed class "tipping point",,, we have nearly identical cars, but Fred's car weighs 180 lbs less than mine,,, its possible he could get bumped into another class. Now you have two guys with nearly identical cars, that enjoy competing against each other,,,now in separate classes.
Nothing could ever make me think thats good classing. I'll refrain from typing the word that comes to mind.

Just like now you can always opt to run in a higher class. You aren't forced into a class, you just have to meet the minimum requirements.

And I'm not trying to be the grumpy old curmudgeon saying change is bad.
I "get" there are things people need / want to fix in the SS and ST classes,,, maybe even SP. But those are people that choose to run in limited prep classes.
I get that the FI cars are a burden when bumped into classes above C. Those things can make ungodly HP and really spoil the field. The long used displacement modifier is obsolete.
I did propose to another member that there should be a PFI and put all the Prepared level FI cars into a Prepared FI class.
Prepared is so perfect in its simplicity currently.

The current rules as proposed leave no option for an open class.
Yes the mods are "open" but the consequences are not, there are consequences of making changes to your car that could change your class, thus its not an unlimited prep class.

It's as open as you want to make it. You find where your car lands, you find where your friendly competition lands, and then decide where you want to play.

I know I'm not going to convince you that new system is better, the top PC and SPC guys have a pretty good thing going from their perspective (although the newcomers get trampled by failing to bring the $$$). I'm just trying to illustrate that the same level of competition could be carried over, and even extended.

That's the end of my $0.02, got a spreadsheet to finish

[dradernh]

...not all that unlike now, a race spec Corvette ends up in Super A, and a race spec Miata ends up in Super C.

That reminds me, how did Michael Fuchswanz end up in T100? I had assumed he was going to move from PA into Super B. Not complaining, mind you.