New Rules - Tech, Policing, and Scrutineers

[WillM]

So assuming all of the questions concerning the calculations of power-to-weight, dynos, etc., all get ironed out into a package/process that everyone loves.

What happens when a car sets a new lap record during the time trial? Our rules state that the car must pass tech inspection 'as raced' in order for the track record to be confirmed.

How are scrutineers going to validate the car's power and weight during a track record tech inspection?

The lap record validation process must consider that either or both of these things could happen at every event:

1. The time trial ends right at the end of the day and there isn't any 'open track' time available.
2. There are not scales available

[brucesallen]

first, if it is a Touring car we are using the factory hp and torque and our job is only to inspect that the changes are as reported.

If it is a Super car we are stuck.I suppose we just check paperwork and the provided dyno sheet (I don't have one for FE).

[dtlemoine]

Another item the club could consider making an investment in is a set of portable scales. Obviously at NH its easy to roll cars through the tech shed, but we wouldn't have that luxury at any of our "away" tracks. I've seen NASA's setup - portable scales are set up with ramps, and a small group of volunteers push the cars up and down the ramps. They were able to easily weigh 1+ car/minute. Considering this would only be for class records, I think the rate would be reasonable.

Someone more knowledgeable than me could keep me honest here, but it seems that there are many options around the $1k mark:

http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-compu ... ductid=478
http://www.saferacer.com/longacre-compu ... ductid=476
http://pitstopusa.com/c-135548-pit-equi ... cales.html
http://pitstopusa.com/c-134903-pit-equi ... cales.html

Some of these are listed to be accurate within 1/10th %.

I don't want to be presumptuous in spending the club's money, but given the recent move from stopwatches to a $5k+ timing suite, this seems to be small change for something that would be a great addition to the robust scoring proposal.

[Mark Swinehart]

Why not stop recording track records?
The fastest car(s) during the TT in each class could still get a $5 trophy.

[paultg]

I'm not sure what the current process is, but being that we work on an honor system and dyno sheets are not required, I would think a process where the points spreadsheet is verified and if for any reason the weight or power numbers seem off, the official lap record could be delayed until back up can be provided.

I wasn't under the impression that because you set a record you need to prove the hp or weight, you just need to be sure the tech inspectors and fellow competitors believe what you claim. If they don't then be prepared to have back up.

Paul G.

[WillM]

Realistically, a budget set of scales and ramps are $2k, and likely $3k if I'm being totally honest. There may be other options that I'm not aware of, or used options

Realistically, however, investing in a set of scales and ramps is likely menial compared to the effort required to transport these items then setting them up and staffing them at every event.

If the club would like to invest in a 22-24' enclosed aluminum trailer, I'll be happy to transport the scales, ramps, timing equipment, HLRA helmets, boxes of COM swag, instructor/classroom bins, and the seemingly endless amount of things we're currently transporting to and from every single event.

The club purchased helmets for HLRA participants, but they have missed more events this year than they attended. Why? We had a gracious volunteer to transport to helmets, but he had a few issues which prevented him from attending several events. It happens.

Sometimes getting the Tech box to events is like a bad episode of the Brady Bunch (redundant) where the tech box exchanges hands a few times between events. Those that are involved with tech and the BoD are likely giving a chuckle and nodding their head right now.

Heavy, somewhat fragile, and cumbersome scales, plus ramps!?!

Tell you what...if the club buys me the trailer, I'll donate an awesome set of scales and ramps! I'll even let timing & scoring use my (I mean 'the clubs'!) trailer as HQ at each event I attend.

But I digress!

Paul - I believe the 'Super' classes are being developed in such a was as to use power to weight as the sole pass/fail metric when determining class legality. There won't be a points spreadsheet. You do however bring up an excellent point, as weight is a key points factor in the 'Touring' classes as well.

Track records will remain a fixture of COMSCC for as long as I have a meaningful voice in the manner.

I look forward to specific answers to my earlier questions.

[wizzman]

Track records will remain a fixture of COMSCC for as long as I have a meaningful voice in the manner.

As will wet weather during ST4 time trials at Mosport.

[WillM]

Track records will remain a fixture of COMSCC for as long as I have a meaningful voice in the manner.

As will wet weather during ST4 time trials at Mosport.

If the new rules are adopted, the existing class records will be archived and we'll start from 0 with 'Touring'.

If that happens, then I'll lift my ban on dry conditions at Mosport, Tremblant, Lime Rock, NJMP, and Calabogie.

Somehow, Dave, you'll probably still get screwed.

[brucesallen]

Will the trailer have a window that serves burgers?

[WillM]

Will the trailer have a window that serves burgers?

Better yet - I say we hire Fast Freddy to serve as Fredxutive Chef!

[nateh]

The club purchased helmets for HLRA participants, but they have missed more events this year than they attended.

I have brought them to every event, except WGI, which I was unable to attend.

[nateh]

I have a set of scales I am willing to bring to away events - almost all of which I have attended for a number of years. I don't think I will be the only volunteer in this regard.

I don't have good ramps. I've gotten by with wooden home-made things for a while. If we're doing a dozen cars (at an away event, this seems generous), this should not be a problem. We can spend anywhere from a few hundred to a thousand or so on ramps if we decide we want them at some point.

[nateh]

What happens when a car sets a new lap record during the time trial?

Things can't possibly be any worse than the status quo. For example, if somebody chips their SS or ST turbo at the moment, our hands are tied - and everybody knows it. With the new arrangement, we'll have tools to deal with this.

[peterfontana]

Will asked: What happens when a car sets a new lap record during the time trial?
Excellent question. I believe in terms of who gets involved when, the system being proposed is basically to do the same thing we did with the 2012 classification system. I think Paul's response summarizes the basic first line of action: through registration in a specific class, the competitor him/herself makes an assertion about their car classification.

> How are scrutineers going to validate the car's power and weight during a track record tech inspection?
You question is particularly relevant for the proposed Super classes. Again, the first stop in the process is get the original classing information from the competitor. I would imagine our current experience as a club will hold, and for the most part this will be sufficient.

Can anyone tell me how many protests there have been in the past 5 years, and did any require more than a Scrutineer's inspection to resolve?

When there is a track record or a protest, the next step is to have a Scrutineer review the competitor's self classification information while inspecting the car. If the Scrutineer is not able to readily verify the original classification, then the Scrutineer can ask the competitor to share any documentation the used to arrive at their initial self-classification. While it would be nice if people came to the event with a dyno sheet and weight printout for Super classes, we will need to be able to resolve classification questions in the event no clarifying documentation is immediately available. In this case, we may want to have a Scrutineer work with the competitor in a limited time window after the event to produce something that can substantiate their original classification claims. In this case questions of weight at non-NHMS events, the club could own scales, and not bother to haul them around, and just have the competitor visit them after the event, borrow them or borrow someone else's. On the HP side, most people are not building truly original engines, and getting some some kind of non-vendor articles or other writeups on similarly prepared engines may suffice. For those that are truly blazing trails and building things that nobody else imagined yet...I'm back to expecting they have a dyno sheet.

While the 2012 classification system does not seem to be power/weight based, there are a wide range of things that can be done on both sides of this equation - even in SS and ST classes - to cheat in ways that would be hard for a COMSCC Scrutineer to reasonably detect. This of course is true in the proposed rules system as well, but this basic truth - we rely on competitor integrity in the vast majority of cases - is consistent.

[nateh]

Here's my recollection of how things have gone over the past few years. I haven't kept a database, so I might be likely to have some details wrong. Other scrutes can shime it.

I think there might be an average of one DQ per year. Maybe not even that. But every year there are a 5-10 cases of people I have had to re-class before the time trial because of either a protest or an observation by myself or another scrutineer.

There has only been one time that the Board of Scrutineers has had to vote (and in this case the vote went against my own opinion), though there have been many occasions when I have held off a decision until I have elicited as many opinions as possible from all the Scrutes I could get to pay attention.

The majority of issues are cases where the owner of the car simply hadn't thought about the rules or read them very carefully. Most of the rest are cases of wishful thinking on the part of the competitor. I don't think I have ever run across a case of intentional cheating.

That said - I continually hear generalized complaints of cheating by "lots of people in my class" or of a particular driver, "but I can't prove it." In those cases, I encourage the complainer to file a protest. They usually don't, and that's the end of it.