Rules for 2013 - Rain Tires

[iamrazor]

Breaking this topic off the original rules thread.

Kicking off a discussion of how wet tires going to be handled. I'll use myself as an example.

My miata is classed in T40 using 205 RA1/R888/NT01s. My car is a point or 2 inside T40. I see hoosier wets and SM6's have the same point value. If I ran a 205 SM6 I'd be in T50. If I want to run a 205 hoosier wet, will I have to add on the same points as a SM6?

the way I see it now is a hoosier wet = SM6 in terms of points. Is it even possible for a T40 car to run hoosier wets without being bumped up to T50?

Is this a way of saying "no wet tires in T40"?

Would it make sense to classify the wet tires as an RA1/R888/NT01 in terms of point values?

[blindsidefive0]

This is a very good question and one that we've considered quite a bit.

Your interpretation of the rules is correct, Hoosier Wets take the same points as a Hoosier R6.

To get things started - there are T40 cars that can run Hoosier Wets and stay in T40. A 1.6 Miata starts at 31 points. Let's say the driver is 3 points over on weight, runs single adjustable shocks for 1 point, and a front sway bar for another point; now, they have 10 points left to use on tires, 9 of which they could use on 205/50/15 Hoosier Wets (3 points for size, 6 for compound). Then there are all the non-Miata examples that could run in T40...like a Mini Cooper non-S (22 points base) or a mid 1990's Civic (less than 20 points base). So no, we aren't keeping wet tires out of T40.

In some ways the weather really messed up our mock time trial results, but in other ways it helped us out quite a bit - for example, in evaluating rain tires and their respective point values we now have a good bit of data. In looking at the results, it's clear that tire is (almost) everything in the rain. The top 7 drivers, regardless of class, were all rocking either Hoosier Wets or a rain slick. In addition, looking at Bill H's lap times, guys who were towards the top of their class in the dry on street tires were getting murdered in the wet.

In conclusion, I think the data shows that, if anything, we are too easy on rain tires, not too tough. One of the reasons we set the Hoosier Wet at 6 points is to match it up with the most common "good" r-compound tires that folks in the club are running. If we were to assign based on pure potential, I would think Hoosier Wets might receive a good 8-10 points over street tires...

So here's the issue - some drivers who are looking to run down a class also happen to own a set of wet tires. If the wet tires are smaller than the dry tires, they might be alright in the points department (e.g. 205 Hoosier Wets = 245 RA1's once you factor in both compound and size). However, others are bumped up a class based on the tire. There's no good answer to this, but if you flip the issue around...using a real example of my student: imagine if you roll in with a stock e46 325i and you are doing a nice job in T40 on your Hankook street tires in the dry. Now the rain comes, you are still running your street tires, and all the Miatas that were maxed out in T40 with RA1's are now running Hoosier Wets...does the e46 on street tires really have a chance, even if there's a monster behind the wheel? It would be hard enough to keep up with a full tread RA-1, a decent enough tire in the wet (and quite a bit better than any street tire I've driven in the rain), never mind fresh ho-ho's which could be a few seconds+ faster than the RA1's.

[n1gzd]

I think that this makes sense.
People who have chosen to run a full tread DOT tire are at a disadvantage with the the wet tire.
regarding people who have already bought their hoosier wets - I would think that in most cases these are the people who also bought hoosier dry tires as well (A6 etc) so they are already classed appropriately.

For people who are say, running RA1 in dry and Hooser wet in the wet they need to choose which way they want to go I guess and either upgrade the dry or downgrade the wet.

Rebecca

[wizzman]

I think the current tire assessments are fine. Most people who run Hoosier wets will have positioned themselves in their class to be able to run an R6 level tire in the dry anyways. If anything, Hoosier wets are a bigger advantage in the rain than R6s are in the dry. I think that if you want to run RA1/Nittos in the dry, then to stay in the same class you would run a full tread RA1 in the rain (a very capable wet tire setup). If you absolutely want to run an H20 in the rain and a lesser dry tire than you will need to leave yourself a point buffer to allow you to run either tire given the weather conditions.

[Stynger]

I think the current tire assessments are fine. Most people who run Hoosier will have positioned themselves in their class to be able to run an R6 level tire in the dry anyways. If anything, Hoosier wets are a bigger advantage in the rain than R6s are in the dry. I think that if you want to run RA1/Nittos in the dry, then to stay in the same class you would run a full tread RA1 in the rain (a very capable wet tire setup). If you absolutely want to run an H20 in the rain and a lesser dry tire than you will need to leave yourself a point buffer to allow you to run either tire given the weather conditions.

+1

[TroyV]

The last NHMS event was my first rain event in three years that I didn't have Hoosier rains available in the "inventory".



I missed them.



A lot.

According to my loosely updated log of events....since 2009, wet weather has been a factor in some way at about 60% of the events I have attended.

My car is right on the line between T50 and T60 depending on the tire. I ran full tread RA1's two weeks ago...and HATED it!! So...I think I'm going into T60 next year.....mainly because of the tire I plan to run when it rains.

[jeffw]

I had a set of heat cycled and pretty bald HWETs and they were about 9-10 seconds off the pace of what I've done on fresh HWET.

[n1gzd]

I have decided to keep using full tread RA1 as rain tires (don't really like them but I think that for me is economical to just keep using them).
Rebecca

[6PAK72]

In my case, Dave chose well and ran a6. I chose poorly and ran H20. Paul took the middle road and ran good tread Ra1. Look at the time differential.

Wets are the equiv. of nuclear warfare in the rain, but a new RA1 is completely competitive.

This goes to my point that the tire compound has to be related to the track. Which is a problem to administer, so perhaps the solution is either to raise the RA1 a point or drop the SM6/h2o a point.

???

[paultg]

Paul took the middle road and ran good tread Ra1. Look at the time differential.

I think you mean me. If so, my RA1s were shaved to 6/32nds by the previous owner before I got them and now have 7-8 heat cycles in them (one by him, and I did the Aug S.Oval event on them). There was no real tread left other than the deeper vertical grooves. I was actually nervous for the TT because I was seeing you and Jeff W. remove RA1s with more tread than mine and go with your wet tires, and Troy was on a brand new set of RA1s (full tread). I believe miata steve was on a brand new set of Hoosier wets as well. We all had similar track conditions, except I think Jeff B. got a rerun later in the session, not sure if those laps were quicker for you than your first tt runs.


So I'm not sure a RA1 point value has to change; the conditions were certainly strange, but I think more on the dry than wet side of things.

[n1gzd]

not sure why you would suggest raising RA1 a point. I am using them and I think that they are not great in the rain.
Rebecca

[WillM]

So for those that are currently running in ST or SP and plan on running Hoosier wets in Touring next year, do you think that the point assessment for Hoosier Wets are fair? What if you are in the same boat, but won't be running Hoosier wets? Still fair?

What I see is a group of cars in SS and ST that are daily driven and arrive to the track without any extra tires, let alone rain tires. The likelihood of these cars now competing against cars that arrive to the track with extra tires, specifically rain tires, seems like it is going to go way up.

Is this fair or economical for those that aren't currently running rain tires, but want to be competitive in their class?

[Bobc]

So for those that are currently running in ST or SP and plan on running Hoosier wets in Touring next year, do you think that the point assessment for Hoosier Wets are fair? What if you are in the same boat, but won't be running Hoosier wets? Still fair?

What I see is a group of cars in SS and ST that are daily driven and arrive to the track without any extra tires, let alone rain tires. The likelihood of these cars now competing against cars that arrive to the track with extra tires, specifically rain tires, seems like it is going to go way up.

Is this fair or economical for those that aren't currently running rain tires, but want to be competitive in their class?

Hey Will,
Wouldn't most cars that would be running Hoosier wets be running Hoosier r6's or may be a6's anyway how else could you run a +7 point tire and stay in your current class?
or did I miss something ?
Bob

[Brendan]

Hoosier Wets are a +2pt tire over RA-1's for me, but that's because I go down in width by 20mm. Hoosier R6's are a +4pt tire as compared to RA-1's, because I run the same width.

[Bobc]

Hoosier Wets are a +2pt tire over RA-1's for me, but that's because I go down in width by 20mm. Hoosier R6's are a +4pt tire as compared to RA-1's, because I run the same width.

OH I get it the wets that we had to run due to rim for SSU (and the corvettes ECU required staggered rim diameters)are the same size that we run with r6's so they cost +7 point's last time I looked.
Hey I did just think of this wouldn't it be more correct to charge more points for smaller rain tires rather than larger rain tires??