NHMS 3 pics and vids

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Bobc
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by Bobc » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:22 am

betelgeuse wrote:Hi everybody :D First of all I would like to congratulate Bob C for taking down my track record in SSU. Nice driving Bob.
The reason I take that line thru T7/8 is I think it gives me a better angle into the braking zone for T9 allowing me to brake a little later. Another plus is you are turning slightly to the left under braking loading the right side tires setting up for the left hander T9. According to my Traqmate I was hitting just under 99 mph (98.85) in the C5Z. There is no way in hell I would be able to do that running the "Miata line".
Two people I have folllowed in practice running the same line as me are Laura Fleming and Nick Fontana. Both excellent drivers.
If you try that line and you have more than Miata power and you're slower.....You're just not doing it right.
My .02 cents
Greg
Thank You Greg. I changed my line this weekend to much like Laura's and that combined with better brakes and sticker Hoosiers for the TT really worked....
Bob

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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by escortracer » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:54 am

I have some video but my camera is not happy at the moment so I can't show any thing. But I will say it was a great event helping Paul talking to Troy and Les (LMAO). Meeting the new guy on the block who shocked the ship out of me on track I wish my camera didn't die because it was good stuff. Good job Andre!
T4 268

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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by Andre » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:50 am

Thank you Bob, that was a hell of a little race we had going on. Great event indeed. Everyone helped me out a ton and it was super funny all the time. Really awesome 2 days
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blindsidefive0
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by blindsidefive0 » Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:59 pm

CP wrote:1:16.634
Cy - I've watched this lap about a dozen times now. Very nice. I'll provide some turn-by-turn comments below. Most of what is listed comes with an asterisk as I wasn't in the car and there's no data so I'm working with limited info...

Start Finish - looks like you get a nice run out of the North Chicane to start the lap
Oval - Great line. It looks like there is a little bit on the table at exit, you could probably go right back to full throttle as soon as you get the car turned in (try at your own risk)
T3 - Again, this is the right line. At entry you might be able to roll just a tad more speed (1-2mph at most) into the turn and still go WOT at the same point
T6 - Is it faster to leave it in 3rd and bang the rev-limiter? This could probably go either way - in Woodle's Lemons car I left it in 3rd, but Kleeman went to 4th. Now I actually prefer the downshift from 4-3 as it adds some rear bias to the braking to help the entry into the bowl. On exit, I'm surprised I didn't see you using more of the new pavement given your comments to Nick.
T9 - I usually don't like to power down the hill as it means I probably overslowed the car. I actually like what Andre's doing in his video through here - it almost feels like one decreasing radius corner where you bleed of speed for T10 entry the entire way down.
T10 - looks like you got all of it (I'm assuming you were floored from the apex).
North chicane - exit was good, but we get back to the debate on entry. It looks like the car is on the hairy edge trying to slow down and get the car turned-in properly. I think most miatas choose to go around the curb at turn-in, even though it tightens the turn...and maybe this is the fastest way through there (definitely don't want to go wide over the entry curb in a race or you could open the door for the guy behind you to make an aggressive move). I forget exactly what I was doing in the Lemons car here, but it's definitely faster in the BMW to run over all of the curb to alleviate this issue with turn in, and it opens up the rest of the turn.

I'm disappointed I didn't videotape my TT laps...I've been lazy with that recently, but plan to use my new GoPro at WGI and NHMS.
- Nick
nicholas.fontana@gmail.com

1999 Mazda Miata - T50
FS: 1997 Green BMW M3 - T80/SC
RIP: 1994 White BMW 325i - SSB

CP
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by CP » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:11 pm

Thanks for your comments Nick.
blindsidefive0 wrote:
CP wrote:1:16.634
Oval - Great line. It looks like there is a little bit on the table at exit, you could probably go right back to full throttle as soon as you get the car turned in (try at your own risk)
We've been working on this line all season. After looking at data and watching the Gorilla for a few years, it appears that the entry is the key to NASCAR. Left foot braking, however WHERE to use it and how much is what I'm working on now. Data shows that the car has more grip to give on entry to mid-corner...it's more an issue of how big my balls are and how much I want the rear end to rotate when using the brakes there...too much and your sphinctor begins to pucker at 100mph. Obviously an early return to throttle is preferrable and this will determine how much the steering wheel will be worked in T2.
T3 - Again, this is the right line. At entry you might be able to roll just a tad more speed (1-2mph at most) into the turn and still go WOT at the same point
I agree that the turn-in can be taken a bit faster. I've just begun to use that inside line so it's a work in progress. My typical entry speed using the Miata line is about 41mph. I think turn-in for this new line has to be slightly slower due to the tighter radius...but track-out has a larger radius and wheelspin isn't really an issue going up the hill when using the inside line and heading out towards the typical track-out spot. I need to work on a reference point for turn-in so I can repeat this line.
T6 - Is it faster to leave it in 3rd and bang the rev-limiter? This could probably go either way - in Woodle's Lemons car I left it in 3rd, but Kleeman went to 4th. Now I actually prefer the downshift from 4-3 as it adds some rear bias to the braking to help the entry into the bowl. On exit, I'm surprised I didn't see you using more of the new pavement given your comments to Nick.
It is faster to leave it in third than to deal with 2 extra shifts, especially during a race. The issue that I have with T6 is that I brake too early...always. So when I'm done with my braking, there is a 15-25 foot section of track where I'm coasting, waiting for my turn-in point (I like a straighter braking line going into the corner than most). So one of the things I'll be working on at the next practice day is waiting to brake later for T6 so that as soon as I'm done slowing the car I'm turning in. Most of the time, people turn-in early there so that extra off-camber pavement at track-out needs to be used. I didn't use it on that lap because I didn't need it, but I usually use some of it during a race because I'm usually looking in my mirror when entering that corner and miss my turn-in mark.
T9 - I usually don't like to power down the hill as it means I probably overslowed the car. I actually like what Andre's doing in his video through here - it almost feels like one decreasing radius corner where you bleed of speed for T10 entry the entire way down.
T9 is my achilles heel at NHMS. I'm slow through that corner and following cars catch me here. I take the school line, get caught on corner entry and it doesn't work in a race situation. However if a wider entry is used (allowing for a larger radius and earlier power application) a car can sneak in on the inside and I lose a position. On this particular lap, I got back to the throttle WAY before I usually do and the car stuck around the corner. It surprised the hell out of me but I went with it and was rewarded. I picked up a half second there compared to my usual lap. My buddies that kill me in that corner tell me to trail brake into the corner. I've tried it but it doesn't feel good with my car's setup. I'm typically modulating the throttle all the way around, however data shows that on this video lap I was way faster than usual.
T10 - looks like you got all of it (I'm assuming you were floored from the apex).
I didn't use enough pavement at track-out. That little section that has been added on the edge of the track really helps with a fast time through T10.
North chicane - exit was good, but we get back to the debate on entry. It looks like the car is on the hairy edge trying to slow down and get the car turned-in properly. I think most miatas choose to go around the curb at turn-in, even though it tightens the turn...and maybe this is the fastest way through there (definitely don't want to go wide over the entry curb in a race or you could open the door for the guy behind you to make an aggressive move). I forget exactly what I was doing in the Lemons car here, but it's definitely faster in the BMW to run over all of the curb to alleviate this issue with turn in, and it opens up the rest of the turn.
Lots of guys run over the curb before turn-in and I should probably do the same. The thought is that as the car comes down off the curbing and the RF spring compresses, THAT'S the time to begin to turn in. The result is more front bite and a larger radius to the corner. Easier said than done with cars in front and behind. It's tough to see through cars ahead when coming into that corner, so it's hard to precisely place the car in my opinion. The pavement drops off to the grass there so if you drop a wheel you're going for a ride through that grass towards NASCAR T4. I've been working this season on a quick car rotation at turn-in using a steering wheel flick, which gets the car turned abruptly and allows an earlier throttle application (Type 1 corner: get a good run onto the longest straightaway thing).

Thanks for your comments. One other guy has been looking at data with me but we don't do it enough. But we've seen that it can be very helpful if used in moderation. Your comments have got me thinking about trying some new things on Friday during the practice day. You should come join us if you've got the time. $150 for the day...typically 8-9 sessions with the morning sessions being mostly empty. PM me if you want to come and I'll let you know where we'll be paddocked...5-6 Miatas and we all run in a big pack during practice days.
-Cy
99 Spec Miata (SM/STU/STL/EP)
2011, 2013, 2014 NER STU Champion

WillM
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by WillM » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:31 pm

My take on Cy's video:

Expertly done. That is an impressive lap time at NHMS.

The video is almost classroom worthy save for the line through T3. The line around T3 can be very effective, but car placement must be very precise - there isn't much room for error. The early turn-in brings the car a lot closer to the tire wall at the apex then usual, and that is a bit too much for students, IMHO. That said, that line is similar to the traditional 'low hp line', except everything happens earlier and further to the right. Turn-in earlier, track out is only mid-track at the transition, tight to the right for the apex at 4. You can carry virtually the same speed but you are also effectively making the track shorter, thereby reducing the sector time. The big bonus is that crossing the transition at mid-track is much smoother; the transition point is a bit more gradual. This allows the car to settle easier/faster, which allows you to go WOT that much earlier. You just need to be very precise with car placement at turn-in and apex, which is why it is not the line I'd teach. I swear I've been millimeters from knocking off my passenger side view mirror there!

T8 through T10 is textbook of what I like to see in a Miata. Most other cars, too. Some cars feel faster by tracking out a bit more to the left under the tree house then coming back across to the right, entering T9 from further to the right. The track is less bumpy there so the car is more composed, but if you can make it stick, I prefer the straight shot into T9. My car gets very light and 'twitchy' cresting through T8, but for me it is manageable, and I still prefer it and find it faster then the more 'swoopy' line through T8 & T9.

The line through the north chicane is also what I teach. Entry from far left (stay tight to the left after exit of T10, tracking out to the right as little as necessary). Then a straight shot between T11a & T11b turn in, clobber the apex at T11b then slide out over the track-out curbing. That the car seems a bit loose there in the video but is still in control. This tells me that there isn't much left on the table.

Concerning the bowl / T6, the exit is the 'fast line' that I would expect to see, and is not how I interpreted the previous comments (in this thread) about stepping over the white line and onto the decreased-camber part of the run-off. The line through there, as far as I am concerned, is right up to the white line and not over it. This gives the driver a little wiggle room should they cross through there and need to step over the line a little bit. Stepping over the line a little bit increases the radius a hair, but I don't find it faster. Also, stepping over the line a little bit does not upset the car too much, but stepping over a little bit more than a little does, as evidenced this past weekend where a car did just that, and found itself coming back across the track, perpendicular to the race line, and immediately into the path of a car that was following 5-6 car lengths behind.
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CP
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by CP » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:11 pm

Thanks Will. Gonna try to perfect the line through T3 and use a mid-track trackout point up through T4/5. We'll see if it gets me speared next weekend! I could still use a passenger seat in my car for ride-alongs from the experts...or quality video and data analysis :D
-Cy
99 Spec Miata (SM/STU/STL/EP)
2011, 2013, 2014 NER STU Champion

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tang-o
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Re: NHMS 3 pics and vids

Post by tang-o » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:59 pm

Nothing to add really. Just that this thread is awesome! With the track fresh in my mind the information in here is really nice. I hope to execute some of the ideas here in October (well except for the south oval). I've learned a lot over the past 2 track events with this club.
Emilio
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1990 Miata

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