Traffic management thought..

[nateh]

...if they aren't seeing and acting on the blue-flags then what makes you think they are going to see the black flag?

All the more reason to throw it. Essential part of the learning experience.

[breakaway500]

"..if you are ignoring blue flags lap after lap it is pretty blatant."

Yes..Thank you. Flaggers do pay attention to when cars are ignoring their "suggestions".

"..what makes you think they are going to see the black flag?

Nate: "All the more reason to throw it. Essential part of the learning experience."

Exactly!

In my opinion..no one should be out on track who is so overloaded that they can't allow a safe pass after being shown the passing flag numerous times..lap after lap.

I'm not saying it should be a free for all out there...but I honestly believe things could be a bit more pleasant for all participants if these "issues" were handled as they occur.

Blatantly ignore the passing flag and get a black flag. Think of it as being politely "asked" to take a breather...

[tommac]

Bruce, I've always thought that about myself, but now that I've seen it in print, I believe it! Thanks for clearing it up. What did you really mean?

[WillM]

As one of the guys that hears about these issues, usually after events, I think it is kind of funny that among those that are in favor of this are those that have been complained about in the past.

Be careful what you wish for!

I agree with Stephan. The blue flag is informational - not a command. How do you black-flag a driver for 'disobeying' an order that was never given?

Corner workers are there to keep us safe, not be our track nannies. You would be amazed at the sight they have and the issues they catch and [B}call-in[/u}[/B}. As it is, their ability to advise drivers of faster cars behind them takes a certain extra level of attention, and we should be thankful that they can throw the blue flag at our events, even with their limited staff. Keeping track of who is getting past who and who is blocking what, and then making a judgment call on whether to issue a black flag or not, is an entirely different and more complex thing to ask for. Why is it more complex? Corner workers themselves decide whether or not to issue a blue flag, but black flags, on the other hand, are issued by control. That means that in order for a black flag to be issued, the corner worker must inform control of a situation, control must make a judgment call, and then control directs the corner worker to act (or not). Sometimes control may even need to contact our Ops before making the decision. So yes, Stephan was exactly right in his use of 'complex'.

Effective corner workers almost always have their backs to traffic, especially if there is only one worker at the station, which is almost always the case at our events. We're not a national racing organization with the luxury of 3+ workers at each station. The majority of our workers are out there solo, so we rely on that one worker to watch over a good portion of the track, relay information to drivers (issue flags), relay information to control (handle radio communications), and even check over cars/drivers as they go by.

I am not convinced that a new black-flag procedure is a better solution to those that we already have in place.

[brucesallen]

Bruce, I've always thought that about myself, but now that I've seen it in print, I believe it! Thanks for clearing it up. What did you really mean?

If you are referring to-
"any passing offenses in the student group 4 Saturday are the fault of the instructor! Student knows nothing."
I meant that the instructor is more responsible for the failure of the student to give a point by than the student. The instructor must be more aware than the student.

Also, Black, red and checker flags may only be displayed upon the direction of Control, not on individual corner worker's volition.

AND: I am very wary of the workers throwing blue flags when there is only one worker at a station. It is that worker's responsibility to be looking down-track to watch for spins or obstructions in order to wave a yellow flag to the oncoming car. If the worker is looking up-track to wave a blue flag he is not performing his primary (safety) function. So, maybe after the down-track has cleared he can look up-track and wave a Blue but his eyes need to follow that car down-track and stay there.

[breakaway500]

I did not know that flaggers were governed by control when to throw a black flag. That would make it a more complex situation. Oh well..it was only a thought...

[Stynger]

"

In my opinion..no one should be out on track who is so overloaded that they can't allow a safe pass after being shown the passing flag numerous times..lap after lap.

I'm not saying it should be a free for all out there...but I honestly believe things could be a bit more pleasant for all participants if these "issues" were handled as they occur.

Blatantly ignore the passing flag and get a black flag. Think of it as being politely "asked" to take a breather...

Mark, you are very new to instructing with COM. Maybe you have never had a student that was a challenge or driven in a car that doesn't have a passenger side mirror. Every student should have a chance to get instruction. Every instructor should give them that chance and work to the best of their ability to get them through it.
Sometimes worrying about cars passing is the last thing on their minds, some instructors have their hands full.
Other instructors and students should give them some slack. Student groups can get really good drivers that get it right away, but also there are others that really need our help. Unfortunately we have to share the track together.
It's not too much to ask to back off and drive through the pits and get a half a lap or more away from them and get back to doing your thing.
You know when your coming up on such a situation, would you rather wait in line to get a point-by, spend 2, 4 or 6 minutes bitching, or duck in the pits and be on your way in a minute or so?
I like to use the slower pace behind such a student to go over lines, and talk about things that normally happen too fast to discuss in the car.
This also goes for group 0 cars that go out in the student groups. It's their group, you are out there for track time or ride alongs etc. Don't terrorize them, give them a little space.
It's nice to have you out there to show a student the line, but respect their space. Most do.
If this happens in group 1 or 2, talk to the driver, offer to clean his/her mirrors (I've done that) and advise them that maybe they are not as fast as they think they are.

[breakaway500]

I have been in situations where I am the instructor in the slow,off pace car,quite a few times.I also instruct for NEQ and their green students are usually on a slower pace than COMS. I make it one of my priorities to watch for passing flags being shown to my student,and do my best to instruct the student to allow the faster cars to pass saftely at the next opportunity.(especially with NEQ,as they black flag those who constantly ignore the passing flag) Ducking into the pits rarely cures the roadblock for much longer than 1 or 2 laps,especially at NHMS. Yes,I know everyone deserves instruction..however, all students deserve to be able to learn at their own pace,including the faster ones.
I guess my expectations regarding passing in the student groups is off base,and I will learn to hold them back,or pit my students when we encounter cars that are not pointing by,unless we are the ones holding things up. If need be,report the offenders or confront them with the issue.Is that the correct COM procedure,as I now understand it? Maybe if a group 4 student is extremely fast,it is possible to bump to group 3?
When out in licensed groups, I very very rarely encounter anyone who doesn't point by,once they are aware you would like to pass,and I certainly would not "terrorize" them.
I know terrorism is reserved for run group 0... (kidding!... )

[Barry]

Stephan I didnt know I was holding up people if I was I am sorry . I would have thought you would have said something to me if you are as fluient in all the laungages you claim. I am not that hard to find. Barry

[McMahonRacing]

How about "closure rates" ......
As much as "point by's" are discussed regarding traffic control ........ What about cars that are seriously off pace w/ the majority, yea I know talk to someone about it, I did & it did get eventually get changed by the following event (ie: closing on a car 15 +/- sec slower per lap is dangereous for all involved, even though the driver was pretty good w/ point by's it was a very uncomfortable situation esp. in a no passing zone not just concentrating on the actions of the car in front but watching for the car closing in on me not expecting me to that slow .... ) ...... so although the system of correction did work, isn't there a better way of letting individulas know that there are other run groups that they could move too if they are uncomfortable (ie: getting run over by everone can't be fun, nor does it allow the individual to progress & wont' get into what can happen to others) .....

Some thoughts:
Maybe or last event TT times ought to be sorted and the cars grouped more according to "times" than class.
Maybe the morning meeting ought to suggest that if you are too slow for your run group, you say something to a specific individual.

[StephanAlfa]

How about "closure rates" ......
As much as "point by's" are discussed regarding traffic control ........ What about cars that are seriously off pace w/ the majority, yea I know talk to someone about it, I did & it did get eventually get changed by the following event (ie: closing on a car 15 +/- sec slower per lap is dangereous for all involved, even though the driver was pretty good w/ point by's it was a very uncomfortable situation esp. in a no passing zone not just concentrating on the actions of the car in front but watching for the car closing in on me not expecting me to that slow .... ) ...... so although the system of correction did work, isn't there a better way of letting individulas know that there are other run groups that they could move too if they are uncomfortable (ie: getting run over by everone can't be fun, nor does it allow the individual to progress & wont' get into what can happen to others) .....

Some thoughts:
Maybe or last event TT times ought to be sorted and the cars grouped more according to "times" than class.
Maybe the morning meeting ought to suggest that if you are too slow for your run group, you say something to a specific individual.

Sure we can talk, make suggestions, repeat this at Driver's Meeting, Classrooms, etc. but not make it mandatory or give a black flag for not giving a point-by.
As mentioned we are a race club but we also have students and this is part of learning. Some start slow and evolve to become champions!
The simplest suggestion is: PIT and get a clean run.

[6PAK72]

Les, well said.

[chaos4NH]

From a Control standpoint, I fully agree with and reiterate Will's point: The corner workers are responsible to control for permission to throw the Black Flag.
And, in agreement with Bruce and several others, the #1 concern of our flaggers is SAFETY. If they are aware of a possible passing situation, they may throw the blue ADVISORY flag. That is not posssible safely when there is only one flagger and they are looking in the proper directiom (down track).
I quite often end up running with a student group due to my other duties. I have the utmost respect for the job the instructors are doing, and find few times when I would be upset with no point by. On a short track like NHMS, it can be a little trying no matter what group you run with. Black flag for no point by? Not if I can help it.
Thanks for the suggestion, but it just is not feasible.

[breakaway500]

Ok..ok I get it..it's all about the fast lap..unless there is traffic... I shall adjust my expectations (and the students) accordingly.

[Neptune441]

From a Control standpoint, I fully agree with and reiterate Will's point: The corner workers are responsible to control for permission to throw the Black Flag.
And, in agreement with Bruce and several others, the #1 concern of our flaggers is SAFETY. If they are aware of a possible passing situation, they may throw the blue ADVISORY flag. That is not posssible safely when there is only one flagger and they are looking in the proper directiom (down track).
I quite often end up running with a student group due to my other duties. I have the utmost respect for the job the instructors are doing, and find few times when I would be upset with no point by. On a short track like NHMS, it can be a little trying no matter what group you run with. Black flag for no point by? Not if I can help it.
Thanks for the suggestion, but it just is not feasible.

Evidence that proof lies in the pudding with "That is not possible where there is only one flagger...
- Last August 28/29