Traffic management thought..

[breakaway500]

This really isn't a "rule" per say,but a thought about helping out with track congestion. How about black flagging cars that ignore the passing flag? I have been in back of a few cars that for some reason or another,even after being shown the passing flag two or three times in a lap..,refuse to point by. Rather than having to dive into the pits to find space, let's black flag the car that is causing the problem.
I do believe this would encourage drivers to be more aware of flags as well as proper passing/pointing protocol. Point by faster cars when flagged,or end up on pit row. Opinions?

[McMahonRacing]

As long as a distinction can be made between cars doing lead follow stuff it shouldn't be a problem, ie: Dad kinda holds me up on purpose once in awhile, but he get's to do that !!!!!!

[breakaway500]

The flag people seem to be on top of who is holding up things,and those "playing". In group 4,a few times,we would see the passing flag thrown for the slower car up front,time after time..and still no point by. Either they did not see the flags (sin number one) or did not understand what they meant (sin number two) or were ignoring them..?(sin number three) I really don't know what was up..and most of the time I don't have the extra time to hunt the offender down for a chat between sessions...but I thought throwing the black flag to the offender may be a way to get their attention.If they blow a black flag..well..sin number four! Just a thought..I figured it couldn't hurt..

[brucesallen]

The flag people seem to be on top of who is holding up things,and those "playing". In group 4,a few times,we would see the passing flag thrown for the slower car up front,time after time..and still no point by. Either they did not see the flags (sin number one) or did not understand what they meant (sin number two) or were ignoring them..?(sin number three) I really don't know what was up..and most of the time I don't have the extra time to hunt the offender down for a chat between sessions...but I thought throwing the black flag to the offender may be a way to get their attention.If they blow a black flag..well..sin number four! Just a thought..I figured it couldn't hurt..

any passing offenses in the student group 4 Saturday are the fault of the instructor! Student knows nothing.

[nateh]

I agree with the idea of using the black flag in egregious situations.

[breakaway500]

"any passing offenses in the student group 4 Saturday are the fault of the instructor! Student knows nothing."

I'm not looking to place blame on occupants..warranted or not..just looking for a better way to break up traffic jams...and keep things lively out on track.

If you can't follow the program,maybe a trip to the "penalty box" will help. I don't see how it could hurt...unless you are a habitual offender and spend lots of time on pit row.

[joncowen]

I agree with this idea. I have seen this happen multiple times.

[Dtangard]

I like the idea.

[StephanAlfa]

I disagree guys.
Here's why and the various scenarios and constructive solutions:
1) If the issue of point-bys are during STUDENT sessions, it is much like Bruce said. Students are experiencing "information overload" on track. Having to listen to instructions, learing the line, etc. PLUS watching the rear view mirror. On the straights is where MOST of the talks is done between instructors and students, thus they may not give you a point-by. In my classroom I actually suggest "if this persists for a couple of laps, PIT and re-enter to a clear track!"
2) So for all licensed drivers who are expericending this in their sessions, I suggest the same: PIT and re-enter the track.
3) Another couple of sugestions:
3.1) Have the Chief Instructor re-iterate this in the drivers meeting
3.2) CHAT with the "offending driver" and clear the air;

We are a close group and I beleive we can all communicate well amongs each other in a civilized manner, so why force the club and track flaggers to add another "black flag" if the offense is a blue "suggested" passing flag???

I had issues before with several drivers (students and licensed) either being passed or passing and ALWAYS resolved via good communication.
Hence I see no need to add another complexity to the flagging stations for this.
HTH,

[breakaway500]

C'mon Stephan..complexity? The only "complex" thing the flaggers would have to do is throw the black flag instead of another passing flag. If a student and an instructor are missing passing flags..maybe it is time for them to take a ride through the pits for a chat session. I just don't see why those who are following proper protocol have to make "adjustments" for those who are not.

Maybe I'll just buy an engineers hat...

[StephanAlfa]

Maybe I exaggerated a bit with the "complexity" but I don't see anytihing wrong with communication. I discuss this in class with some students when i am actually followng them and video-taping. In most cases may happen in the first session but all cleared up after that.
I presume your issues are with licensed drivers? is that you again???

[breakaway500]

Stephan..most of the situations I have had have come from group 4,and some in 3. I realize that we have a lot of green students in 4,and I don't expect them to be as reliable to point by,especially if it is the first or second session of the day..but after seeing the passing flag thrown enough times....it does get frustrating.
I have been in similar situations with first time on track students,and if I see the passing flag shown to our car,I make sure my student allows the following car or cars to pass at the next safe opportunity. It is part of their learning to be aware of what is going on up front and out in back,and to SEE those flags. If they become overwhelmed with what is happening, I bring them into the pits for a break.
Seeing a black flag shouldn't be seen as an "insult" any more than being passed. All I am suggesting is allowing the flaggers to help out with on track traffic management with the use of a black flag for those rare instances where the passing flag seems to be misunderstood or ignored.
What better way to control the flow of traffic than as it is happening? I have seen this approach done at "other" clubs and it works very well.

[Chrispy]

Mark, this might seem like a silly question, but if they aren't seeing and acting on the blue-flags then what makes you think they are going to see the black flag?

Just sounds like some instructors need to be more diligent at looking for flags from the passenger seat and helping their student co-ordinate a pass. Although for the first few laps of the first session I think most instructors are just happy to keep their student on the track, rather than worrying about passing.

[jlwhorf]

Mark, this might seem like a silly question, but if they aren't seeing and acting on the blue-flags then what makes you think they are going to see the black flag?

Technically, the blue flag is a notification that a faster car is approaching and giving a point by is not mandatory if the lead driver doesn't feel comfortable giving the pass. On the other hand, a black flag is mandatory.

[Chrispy]

Mark, this might seem like a silly question, but if they aren't seeing and acting on the blue-flags then what makes you think they are going to see the black flag?

Technically, the blue flag is a notification that a faster car is approaching and giving a point by is not mandatory if the lead driver doesn't feel comfortable giving the pass. On the other hand, a black flag is mandatory.

True, but if you are ignoring blue flags lap after lap it is pretty blatant.