Trialing with Transponders

Jimmy Pet · Post by **Jimmy Pet** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:02 pm

Hey all, 
A discussion is running over on the EMRA message board on this topic and since COM is the other major TT club in the Northeast I thought I would stir the pot here as well. 
 
Has COM ever discussed going to a transponder type system for Time Trialing to eliminate the waste of track time in the afternoons on TT days? 
 
I time trial with pretty much any and every club that does Time Trials in the Northeast. EMRA, CART, COM, SCCA, M Club, NASA (once), Corvair Club, you name it anyone who has a TT, if I can be there, I will be. 
I dont race, I time trial, its what I love. 
 
EMRA & COM use the most traditional system that I call "the wait", where you do 2 - 3 20 - 25 minute practice sessions, then wait and do solo timed laps 2 or 3 cars on track at once. 
 
The way SCCA does it is a little different 3-4, maybe 5 cars on track at a time all day, you do 5 lap sets. 
It starts at 9:00 ends at 5:00. 
You actually drive a little "less" miles in this format (bad) but you get more laps that count (good). 
 
A transponder system combines the best of both worlds. 
This is working succesfully on the west coast with NASA using AMB system and on the East Coast with M Club using Hot Lap timers. 
 
There has been a sentiment in some frequent time trialers I have talked to at track events that the traditional "wait" for everyone to do their timed runs 3 at a time is a huge waste of track time. Now with the advent of transponders and-or Hot Laps we can overcome this waste of track time. 
To me,,, track time conquers all. 
Track time with a competition outcome is better. 
LOTS of track time with a competition outcome better yet. 
 
NASA (west coast) and M Club (east coast) have already started having Time Trials with Transponders or utilising a Hot Lap unit to maximise the days track time. 
Think about it,,, No waiting. 
Every lap counts all day. 
Instead of 2 or 3 laps that count, you get 4 x 25 minute sessions worth of laps that count. 
For me for exmple, on say Pocono North, thats approximately 100 laps that count. 
That is huge. 
 
M Club who has jumped on board with PDA is having what they call HOT LAP Time trials inside PDA's open run groups. You dont even know its happening. Their implementation is working very nicely. 
Its quite simple. 
The Trialer buys an in car Hot Lap unit (which most of us already have). The Club puts a transmitter up before the first session. 
As you lap all day in sessions you get times. When you finish your practice session you recall your best time and roll through a "Check Point" with an "Official" who looks in at your Hot Lap confirms the time, records it under your car number. Until you better that time,,, you dont bother them. 
 
Its just a possible new way to look at Time Trialing where its a no lose situation. 
More laps that count and more track time. 
I brought this up to a few COM members who I will not name, and they were very open to the idea as well. 
 
People question the safety,,, its still not racing. 
Open lapping practices, etiquette, passing rules still apply. 
If someone drives like an ass,,, the same penalties apply. 
Nothing changes there. 
If you cant keep it together in a civilised way, seeya. 
 
The only possible problem with the AMB system is do the tracks COM run on have a timing loop buried? 
If they dont,,, there is the M Club - Hot Lap TT variant. 
This needs nothing but people to have a hot lap in car reciever. 
 
The goal for it is to maximise track time and still have an outcome at the end of the day (as opposed to just a PDA / SCDA type club "lapping" day). 
We are already there driving around in circles in practice. Why not make every lap count while we are. 
 
Thoughts? 
Cheers 
Jimmy Pettinato 
#98 BMW M3 - PC

brucesallen · Post by **brucesallen** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:03 am

Frequently the Board has discussed transponders and assumed the AMB transponder is the only choice. It has been rejected because it would force all trialers to spend $350 and the club to have expensive logging gear. You bring up some good points on saving time, although the requirement for Hot Lap timers is still a detriment to newbies. 
Bruce

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:20 pm

Another consideration would be 'clean laps'. 
 
The only 3 consecutive 'clean laps' I got at Watkins Glen this year were during time trials. For the most part, I was happy to get one clean lap in at a time during the practice sessions. The track is large, but the disparity between "fast" high-hp cars and "quick" low-hp cars made for lots of point-bys on the back-straight followed by catches into 5 or 6. This is even more of an issue at the uber-popular NHIS events. 
 
According to my hotlap timer, the 3 clean laps during time trials let me melt better than 2 seconds off of my fastest time during the pervious day and a half of practice sessions. 
 
Personally, I wouldn't mind picking up a reasonably priced transponder if it: 
A. helped timing/control/the club run smoother with less work (they do lots of work and get little credit) 
B. translated into more seat time for all of us 
C. was generally accepted by the membership 
d. maintained our ability to run a series of clean laps (isn't that the purpose of the time trial format??) 
 
Just my $0.02 
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)">

fact5racer · Post by **fact5racer** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:50 pm

I totally agree that transponders are the way to go! Status Quo is such a waste of track time. As far ass not haveing a "clean" lap until the TTs the way i is now, if you knew that every lap counted then you would just hold back and wait for clear track ahead for a "clean" run. A couple of years ago at the FFR Nationals I was smart enough not to get into racing with others, but more importantly to hold back, make my car as wide as possible and then go for it! Got me 3rd on the grid!

Christine D · Post by **Christine D** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:12 pm

I would definitely be in favor of this format, because I don't particularly care about time trials, and I have both a transponder and a Hot Lap timer. I'm pretty sure I paid $270 for my AMB transponder, not $350. 
 
Depending on how you run the numbers, the transponders would pay for themselves in 3 or 4 events in added track time. 
 
Figuring the 3-lap time trial as being worth about half of a practice session, right now you get about 6.5 sessions for $280 if you sign up for two days, or 2.5 sessions for $150 if you sign up for one. This works out to $43 and $60 per session. Multiply by 1.5 (the added sessions), and using transponders would be $64.50 or $90 worth of additional track time per event. 
 
I estimate that about 10-20% of the cars already have transponders. The club would need to buy some units that newbies could rent. SCCA rents battery-powered transponders for $50 per weekend, with a big security deposit. 
 
With regard to track etiquette, I forsee *big* problems with this format. I think the groups would have to be split up differently than they are now. There would need to be 
 
1. Fast Big Bore 
2. Slow Big Bore 
3. Fast Small Bore 
4. Slow Small Bore 
 
And the blue and black flags would need to get used a lot more than they do now. 
 
Christine

Christine D · Post by **Christine D** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:18 pm

...and folks would want to get really good at working the draft. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/devil.gif ALT=":evil"> Getting a good tow at a place like WGI has got to be worth seconds.

Jimmy Pet · Post by **Jimmy Pet** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:11 pm

Excellent responses all. 
Christine, I had never analised it like that, nice job! 
 
I also love the lap time based run group idea. 
Almost like bracket racing. Put your avg. lap time in when you register for run group assigns. 
 
That would make for good flow. 
 
Good discussion here, very well thought out responses as opposed to "change is bad". 
 
Keep 'em coming. 
Cheers 
jimmy p.

Mike D · Post by **Mike D** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:46 pm

I agree with what Rusty has to say. I don't want to beat the subject to death, but I have never been able to match my TT times during a practice session, there is always too much traffic. On day 1 at Mosport I did ~120 practice laps and I don't think I got more than 2 or 3 clean laps in. 
 
I don't mind the traffic to be honest. As long as we're all out there having fun, but once we're on the clock I imagine it could get very frustrating and maybe less fun(?). If we were to go to a transponder system we would definetly have to rethink the run groups for it to work. (we should rethink the run groups anyway) 
 
Another concern is consumables. Most people don't run flat out during practice sessions. It's too expensive on tires and brakes, there's often too much traffic, and there's nothing to gain for the risk. I usually run most of the track at about 80% and work each corner 1 at a time at 100% throughout the day. Then try and string it all together for the TT. I guess I'm thinking that the new format would force me to run 100% flat out all the time. Not that that wouldn't be fun, just a little more expensive. 
 
...and call me old school, but there's something about the pressure of having only 3 laps to string it all together that I just love. I'd hate to trade it for "ah', I've got all day to figure this sh!t out" 
 
In the end if it makes things run smoother I'm all for it though. 
 
-Mick 
E30 M3 - 523 ST2

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p084.ezboard.com/bcomsportscarcl ... rclub>Mike D</A> at: 7/8/05 9:19 am

jlwhorf · Post by **jlwhorf** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:38 am

Great thread and here are my thoughts on this topic. For me, I believe that I do my fastest laps in the middle of a run group when the car and tires are fully up to temperature. During the cold weather track days in the spring and fall, 3 laps at NHIS or LRP are enough to get the end of year rubber up to temp. I also push harder when I running in a pack or trying to reel someone in. 
 
I totally agree with Christine about we can’t do this with our current track etiquette. Even with further parsing the run groups, we may need use an open track and passing format. I know it sounds intimidating, but I had an open track/passing event with PDA about a month ago at LRP and it was the cleanest and fastest track day I have had. This was the first track day where the first run group was not a throw away. I know I may get slammed for this comment, but there are enough people who do not like to point others by, even when they are considerably slower (in cornering and total lap times) than the following car. I don’t if it pride, or not using mirrors or whatever. And a point by slows usually down both the overtaking car and the one being over taken. 
 
The price of timing equipment should not be big deterrent considering the money spent on everything else. I know I use this excuse to prevent me from buying equipment saying that I need the money to by parts, especially now that I have to put an engine my car. 
 
Jonathan

boltonite · Post by **boltonite** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:39 am

This was beaten to death a couple years ago. I had favored using transponders for all the reasons mentioned. After learning more about timing/scoring, as well as thinking thru non-timing related aspects of time trials, I am no longer convinced transponders will help organizers nor increase track time for drivers. The image of people racing around all day "on the clock" is not an improvement, IMO. One way to shorten a TT is to reduce the # of hot laps from 3 to 1. Just kidding, sort of. 
 
And to increase [open] track time, look at the number of run groups and the duration of sessions. Other clubs manage to provide 4-5 hours of open track to "licensed" drivers and 1-2 hours of track time to students (in 25- to 30-minute sessions). By having fewer run groups and longer open track sessions (e.g., 1 hour), drivers tend to use only a portion of any session - and will often skip a session - and far less time is spent staging cars on/off the track. I am sure this format may create issues and will not solve others (e.g., not getting point-by's) but it does increase available track time. 
 
FF

Jimmy Pet · Post by **Jimmy Pet** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:07 am

Great responses, I think the reason I brought this up here is these same concerns are being tossed around on the EMRA website. 
 
As you guessed I am overwhelmingly in favor of Trialing with transponders, whatever it takes, to increase track time and achieve better results (which I believe are both attainable and not mutally exclusive). 
 
For me "personally",,, at all the tracks I have ever Time Trialed at, NEVER once has my personal best lap (of that day -or- best ever) been set during the TT "timed runs" portion. 
ALL of my personal bests (daily and overall) were all set during the "practice sessions" or at lapping days or DE's (well not that I would ever time myself at a DE, but if someone had possibly "told" me what my lap times were). 
 
In any case that leads me to believe that it is possible to go fast in a controlled practice type environment, gathering lap times and dealing with traffic, pointbys, etc. 
 
Look at it this way, even if you "only" get 3 hot, clean laps out of 120,,, your still even with the current satus quo. 
 
That is my main impetus for backing this move. 
A) I have found I can go faster in practice, and 
B) I like more track time,,, so its a win-win in my book. 
 
My solo lap TT times are always 1/2 to 3/4 second off my best practice times each day with the benefit of hot tires, hot brakes. 
 
Now I "would" probably miss that Gut Check portion of getting ready for solo timed laps (like Mick posted about),,, but I could easily forget about that with the promise of 40-ish minutes extra track time per day. 
 
Cheers 
jimmy p. 
#98 BMW M3 - PC

offcamber09 · Post by **offcamber09** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:08 pm

I agree with Mike D. and the others that claim their fastest laps are during the tt. I, as well, do not mind the traffic when it's not in "train" form. My 2nd day Mosport lap times were 1:43 all morning then I did a 1:40 in the tt. At WGI I went from 2:21s to a 2:17. Part of it is as Mike said, you don't go 100% all day in the practice laps, but the major part is traffic. Jonathan and Brian have the tire heat problem in a 3 lap tt. I don't want to be the doomsdayer here, but how can this new system work at NHIS where traffic gets like rush hour ? I'm sure the club does not want to decrease the number of cars allowed per event for NHIS, especially, which is the club's cash-cow. The transponder cost would not be a deterant for me. I see this working better at the large tracks. 
 
Scott Rosnick 
#09 SPA Mustang

kfoote · Post by **kfoote** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:27 pm

For the time trials, at every COM event I have been to over the last 10 years, the majority of the run groups are 4-5 cars, not 2-3. This is the entire purpose of the time card system, to get cars with the same lap times in the same run group. If the person working pit out and the person assigning the run groups do their job, then with 5 cars at the overcrowded NHIS track, there has to be an average difference of about 4 sec/lap between cars for a catch to occur. Unless you are talking about totally changing the on-track time trial format, or adding more cars to run groups (going from 5 to 6 cars reduces the average lap difference to about 2.5 sec/lap, which will increase the number of catches significantly), I don't see how going to a transponder system will either speed things up or make it easier on timing. I am not 100% familiar with the system, but I believe it is now set up where timing can be done by one person if necessarry. In the last few years, since the current timing system has been put in place, the number of reruns has dropped significantly, and though I have no verification to back this up, the most common catches have seemed to be the first car in a group catching the last in groups where there is an above average difference in times posted on the time cards. 
 
IF you were to allow passing during the timed run ***BAD IDEA*** I beleive the current timing system can be set up to accept this. Unless you are talking about an all-out, SCCA style qualifying format ***BAD IDEA*** I simply don't see how the added cost of requiring everyone to use a transponder can be justified. 
 
As for why it's a bad idea, I would bet that being a timed event with open passing would violate the current contracts wioth tracks and with COM's insurance. The net result would be in order to accomplish this there would be significantly increased entry fees, increased chances for on-track, car-car incidents (until you've been there, you have no idea how tempting it is to dive bomb a Corvette going into West Bend while driving a Miata to potentially gain 0.1 sec on that lap and a good start to the next), and the increased risk would result in decreased participation, again resulting in increased entry fees. 
 
As another issue, I frankly don't see where COM has a lack of track time. Going back to the NHIS events, In the last 10 years of going to COM events, I have NEVER seen a siuation where cars had to be turned away after time trials for open track as a result of too many cars on the track. As for other events, well, if you ever want to see what it's like to run a 4-hour enduro, I reccommend going to a COM event at Mosport or Summit Point. 
 
In later racing venues, there is also something very strongly to be said for needing to run a fast lap when it matters. In the format you're describing, if you make a mistake on one lap, or make a setup mistake, then it can be corrected later. Part of the skill set that the current time trial format encourages is being able to make a fast lap when it counts. As an example of when this is useful, at an SCCA race I ran at Lime Rock in drying conditions, I got ahead of my main competition at the start, but was slower later in the race when the track dried out. I had to hold off my competition with him on my bumper for the last 6 laps, where a single mistake would have resulted in losing the position. The COM experience of needing to make the perfect laps when they counted the most definitely helped me out there. In higher ranks, many series require you to start the race on the same tires you qualify on. Most of these tires have a lap that they are the fastest on. If you don't get your fast time on that lap when it counts the most, your chances for starting up front decrease significantly. 
 
The only real advantage that I can see transponders making is accuracy to 1/1000 second, where the current human error puts it in the neighborhood of I would guess 0.01 sec. I think requiring a $350 (or even $270) additional up front investment is enough where it would make an impact in the number of new members wanting to join and run with the club, and require them to install something on what many people use as their daily driven vehicle. For those people who only want to run 1-2 events per year, this becomes a significant percentage of their annual racing budget. 
 
For those that do not know, I do have an AMB trasponder mounted on my car, so the above cost issues would not affect me directly. I just don't see how simply adding a transponder would result in a large gain of track time that would actually be used without significantly altering the time trial format to one that would result in increased fees. To many, COM is a place where they can compete on a race track with others with similar cars, and still be able to drive their car to work the following day. This is how many COM members (including myself and my dad) get their first introduction to on-track competition at a level that is safe and affordable, and is IMO the core group that COM should be catering to. When I first started out as a 21 year old pizza delivery guy, a $300 required startup fee would have made COM cost prohibitive, and the decision to run with COM vs someone else would have been much more difficult.

Edited by: <A HREF=http://p084.ezboard.com/bcomsportscarcl ... >kfoote</A> at: 7/9/05 11:39 pm

deimos · Post by **deimos** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:33 pm

Why not have COM buy the transponders? You could rent them at registration for those that don't have them already. I'm pretty sure there are battery powered AMB transponders. 
 
As the event ends, all drivers stop at the gate and return the transponders. Any missing numbers are given a polite reminder email and then a bill if they don't return it. 
 
As for the format, I think using transponders may make T&S easier. You'd certainly have all times in by 11 on TT day! I wouldn't change the run group methods now. Perhaps make the TT day open track in the morning.

brucesallen · Post by **brucesallen** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:37 am

Don't forget the thousands (?) of dollars the club would need to spend for the central transponder equipment.

COM Sports Car Club

Trialing with Transponders

Trialing with Transponders

Transponders

Clean Laps

Re: Clean Laps

Re: Trialing with Transponders

oh yeah

Re: oh yeah

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Re

Re: trialing w/ transponders

Re: trialing w/ transponders

Re: trialing w/ transponders

wasted track time?

transponders, time trials, and opinions..oh my

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