My NJMP crash :(

[WillM]

Cy is exactly right, and we do teach it.

It is hard to tell from the video, and while I'm not an accident scene recreation specialist, my initial reaction immediately following the crash was that it would have been better to let the car out onto the grass. Though I had only been on-track once (in the passenger seat of a student's car) I recalled that there was a lot of run-off to the left.

The debrief I received from the track officials & corner worker(s) picks up on a few points Carl made. According to the officials at NJMP, this was a classic case of doing more harm by trying to save it. As I already said, it isn't easy to pick out exactly what happened from the video, but the staff at NJMP has seen this type of accident many, many times, and I am inclined to go with their assessment. By the way - those guys were pros. Excellent, excellent crew they have there.

Nick - sorry about the car, but glad to know the damage wasn't too bad.

I've noticed in your videos that the tail end comes around a good amount. You seem to be busy counter steering and correcting. Have you considered that your setup might need some tuning? It seems to me that the car tends to over steer quite a bit, mostly when you lift and at mid-corner. Oversteer suggests that the rear end is too stiff or the front too soft. That the problem happens mid-corner suggests that the swaybars aren't balanced (swaybars are most active mid-corner). Just a thought.

Glad you came out of it OK. Pretty heroic fix to get it back on track and drive it home too!

[chaos4NH]

A couple of other thoughts:

You picked it up a notch or two the closer you got to the 2 cars in front. I remember a crash some one posted a while back where the driver was paying too much attention to the car (a Viper?) in front.

Second, you appear to have tracked out too soon. You appeared to be tracking out before the apex cone. Were you in too "tight" to that cone? early apex?

[nateh]

Most experienced drivers would be both feet in (wheels locked) between 5:39 and 5:40 of that video. From that point, the car (absent ABS) would spin down the track. Maybe onto the asphalt, maybe onto the grass. What it would not do would be to steer itself into the inside wall as the car appears to do here.

I can't say from the video whether Nick tried too long or too hard to save it. That depends on when his right foot went hard down, which the video doesn't capture. If his foot was hard on the brakes by 5:40, then this crash would have not occurred except for the ABS.

Nick, you're a brave man to drive that car that way, given how tail-happy it appears to be. Having said that - I've loved every bimmer I've ever driven, so in your shoes I'd have been doing the same - "and loving it," in the immortal words of Maxwell Smart.

[nateh]

I had two wheels in the dirt at that point several times, in several cars. In each case, I knew beforehand that this was going to happen, so before I got there I had the car straight, and drove straight off, steering wheel centered. As a result, I was able to keep my foot pretty much in it (neutral throttle) and drive back on the track with minimal lost time and no drama.

I often say to students that the sooner you recognize a mistake and start to compensate for it, the less expensive it is.

[savage217]

As most people know and mentioned, the problem is my car over steers so much that I am constantly correcting it which is why my natural reaction in this instance was to counter-steer and get on the throttle. The combination of this being a blind turn, not knowing the track well enough at the time, and being too far into the grass with the left side of my car was really why I crashed. I tried to save the car initially but by the time I thought I saved it, the rear was still in the grass and the trajectory changed to the other side of the track. Hindsight is twenty twenty so in this instance probably going off to the left and not trying to "save" it is the right thing to do. For the record I do remember getting both feet in as soon as I was spinning to the right tire wall.

As far as fixing my over-steering issue, I am going to figure out what my rear alignment is and in the meantime take the rear sway-bar off completely. The weird thing is Jon Cowen and I have nearly identical setup cars and when I autox his car it feels a heck of a lot more planted in the rear end and I actually pull off quicker times compared to if I were in my car. I don't really know what the hell the reason for it is. You can look at my WGI video from last year and see the same issue and that is on a different suspension.

[Stynger]

As most people know and mentioned, the problem is my car over steers so much that I am constantly correcting it which is why my natural reaction in this instance was to counter-steer and get on the throttle. The combination of this being a blind turn, not knowing the track well enough at the time, and being too far into the grass with the left side of my car was really why I crashed. I tried to save the car initially but by the time I thought I saved it, the rear was still in the grass and the trajectory changed to the other side of the track. Hindsight is twenty twenty so in this instance probably going off to the left and not trying to "save" it is the right thing to do. For the record I do remember getting both feet in as soon as I was spinning to the right tire wall.

Nick, I think you have a good grasp of what happened.
Get the car fixed and work on the set up, it shouldn't be that loose.
We can talk about it if you want.

[savage217]

Thanks Les,

The more I think about it the more I think it is my rear trailing arm bushings. They have 36k hard hard miles on them. It is hard to check them without unbolting them and taking them out. What I normally do is use a pry bar or crow bar and try to make them move. My car has been loose at least since last season. I am going to be changing them now for sure. I replaced mine in 2006 with stock bmw and aftermarket bushing limiters to make them stiffer. Jon Cowen has poly urethane power-flex so that is essentially the only different in our rear end. Jon is barely ever sideways on track or counter-steering. That has to be it.

[WillM]

Sound good Nick.

Another thing to consider is that something may be bent or broken. For example, a front endlink may have snapped or a trailing/suspension arm may have bent. As you suggested, something could also be binding.

Imagine how much faster you'll be with a better planted car!

[blindsidefive0]

a front endlink may have snapped

This happened to the 911 at some point during the spring. When I was at LRP it was like driving a different car - really got in my head with the front of the car floating around and the back always stepping out...especially in the downhill turn.

[brucesallen]

I had both feet in as I was on the track but the abs would not allow the tires to lockup. The car is fine structurally it just really needs a fender, nose panel, and door dent pulled to be presentable.

I wonder if we should teach something new: If ABS prevents the spin on two feet in, then turn AWAY from the skid, forcing a spin??

[breakaway500]

If you did not turn into the spin at all,the car should continue to spin in an out of control oversteer condition regardless of abs intervention. That should keep the car from traveling in an undesireable direction.

Or,pull the fuse on the abs system while driving on a dry track.. (my personal solution for abs "control".. )

[savage217]

Nick, now you know how I feel all the time haha. Although that 964 must be a handful to begin with.

Thanks for the comments Will. It will be nice to have a planted rear end. Every long sweeper I go through I feel like I am going to crash.
Will be nice to not have to worry about that as much. Greg Loupis also has the powerflex bushings and no oversteering issues even with more power so I am confident those will fix the issue.

I hope to be faster with a planted rear end.

[paultg]

Nick, I suggest you check the alignment if you don't know the current settings before you put $$$ into bushings (although that doesn't sound like a bad idea either). At least then you'll have a base point to work from. - Paul G.

[savage217]

I will do that but I know it isn't an alignment issue. It has been doing it since at least last year. I have gotten many alignments since the start of the issue. The only unchanged item are trailing arm bushings. I will try to find what they are before I replace the bushings.

[betelgeuse]

Nicks car is evil. It wants to be a drift car