Tires And Other Priceless Ouestions

[Track wheels]

I wanted to continue the Blog on Street Stock Tires here because it`s not about Rules any longer.
I hope that these topics may be of general interest to others.
I know that those who have spent years tracking have opinions that are of great value to others.
Please add your comments.

I know this is deviating a little from the original topic...... I have driven full tread RA1's and NT-01's in the rain. I found them to be no better than the Hankook RS2's I had on the car as street rubber....especially where standing water was concerned. Strangely,I found the NT's to be slightly better than the RA1's in the standing water, though not enough to declare them a winner.

Obviously......In this part of the country, we get a bit of rain. In the 2009 season, more than half of the track days I was at were raining. As a result, I would get very frustrated as I was under prepared for the conditions. The way I look at it now is that not having a proper rain tire at those events represented missed opportunities, missed seat time, not to mention a severely dimished experience over all. You spend your hard earned money to be at one of these events,so it behooves you to get as much seat time as you can, at least it does for me. This year, I used RA1's and NT-01's as the car's street rubber. This was so I could carry the R6's and the wets on the tire trailer. I only drive the car on the street to and from events, and a few days before/after to work out any mechanical issues I may be experiencing. I never noticed the RA1's or NT's dropped in performance in any way, and I drove the car to and from all the away events save one. My car is very light though.

It may sound like a frivolous purchase, but my Hoosier wets were the best purchase I made last season. The amount of track miles on my odometer is a testament to that. At least a third of my miles are on them.

For a street tire, I'd pick the tire with the lowest UTOG rating that gets the best reviews in the wet. Star Spec, RS3, RT615K, and XS are in that category.

"It's all about the fast lap" has a subset statement that is unwritten. That phrase is "It's all about tires".

I`m glad you brought this up. Driving in the rain was a difficult challenge for me. I was concerned that the tires would make all the difference.
And I really did not have the right tire.
Yet when I`m planning a track day I never think about a wet track. In this past year my dry -track -days luck ran out and I
ran several days in heavy raining conditions learning to cope with the rain.
At Mid-Ohio a large portion of the cars were parked. I saw this, but to a lesser extent, at other tracks.
So for next year, I want a tire that I know can handle the wet.
It sounds like a pure rain tire, like the Hoosier Wet, out performs say a Micheline SP2 ( 220 wear rate ) .
Also, if I can only bring one extra set tires to the track, then I will be driving there on my track tires.
One person says that highway driving will heat cycle the tire.
Another says that it is not true because the tire is not getting hot enough- so leave the ( re: RA-1) track tires on.

[breakaway500]

Hoosier wets are an incredible standing water tire,however you don't want to run them on dry pavement,and certainly not to and from the track.
There are many good street/track tires out there and you will get lots of opinions as to which are the best...however, NONE of them will be as good as Hoosier wets in water or an R compound for dry. The street/track tire will always be a compromise to owning two sets of dedicated tires.(or more...)
If it's all you can afford to own one set of tires..well...'Cest la vie! Just don't be surprised when your lap times are not as fast as others on weather specific race tires. There is no magic do-all tire,unfortunately...

[Track wheels]

What rain tire width do you think works better?
Do you run a narrow width tire to prevent aquaplanning ?

[breakaway500]

Weight on the tire will determine the best width for a specific car,but yes,a narrower tire than you usually run in the dry is better,in most cases. On a light car,like a Miata,I run 195/205 wets. On my fwd car,I like a little wider 225 wet up front,195 out back.No real need for width in a rain tire unless you have specific width rims and have to run wide tires to fit the rim.

[Track wheels]

Weight on the tire will determine the best width for a specific car,but yes,a narrower tire than you usually run in the dry is better,in most cases. On a light car,like a Miata,I run 195/205 wets. On my fwd car,I like a little wider 225 wet up front,195 out back.No real need for width in a rain tire unless you have specific width rims and have to run wide tires to fit the rim.

I see that in some cases you run a bigger front tire.
So I want to throw out a question to anyone.
Does a R compound eliminate a under steer tendency
Or does the exact same balance or lack of, remain the same?

[chaos4NH]

Weight on the tire will determine the best width for a specific car,but yes,a narrower tire than you usually run in the dry is better,in most cases. On a light car,like a Miata,I run 195/205 wets. On my fwd car,I like a little wider 225 wet up front,195 out back.No real need for width in a rain tire unless you have specific width rims and have to run wide tires to fit the rim.

I see that in some cases you run a bigger front tire.
So I want to throw out a question to anyone.
Does a R compound eliminate a under steer tendency
Or does the exact same balance or lack of, remain the same?

Suspension and its setup cures understeer. The only time my front driver understeers is when I am too late and wide at the apex. Even when not in 100% mechanical health the MS3 does not exhibit understeer when I drive it correctly. Or as a guy in a BMW E36 M3 said at Monticello: "how does that guy get a front driver to corner that well?" I run same size tires all around, by the way. Oh, and a good point to remember, a well set up front driver is not prone to over steer! Jeeesh, I found out that in a quick way when switching to Fred's BMW at NHMS!
All of the above JMHO, of course.

[imgon]

I'm not sure if I missed it in your other post but are you looking for a 2nd set of tires or one set that will do it all? If one set has to get you there and back and run on the track and be prepared for any weather condition I would think your best bet is the OEM tires. They were spec'd by the Mfg and are designed to work fairly well across an exteme set of weather variations. This does limit the ability to push the car to its potential limit at a track. However if you are still trying to learn to drive better and not racing wheel to wheel for the championship this is probably your best option. If you are going to 2 sets of wheels/tires you will need to compromise one set or the other due to driving there. If I had to make this choice I would get a good set of all season tires to drive daily and use as rain tires and a set of good R compounds for the dry days. My thought is if it is raining chances are you will be going a little easier and the extra grip a race specific rain tire might provide is likely minimal. I trailer my car to the track and due to the trailer design and my lowered suspension I have to use a set of street tires and wheels to get on and off the trailer. I use these tires for my rains, they are just plain jane all season tires and do quite well. They are also 17" instead of the 15" R compounds I run in the dry and the extra weight and slightly larger diameter/circumference also make the engine spool up just a little slower which is good in the rain. Although I do not like it when it rains at the track it really is good practice for learning the lines as your brain tends to tell you not to go so fast when you can't see 50' in front of you. I have only had one TT that it rained and I was surprised how quickly you still can go, most of my rain experience has been practice sessions and I just slowed down to a comfortable pace and tried to hit my marks. Hope this helps you a little, so many choices.....

[Track wheels]

I am sitting here, nearly thru a 10 course Christmas dinner,
I,m thinking, I better take a break and check this blog.
And look at all the helpful info that pours out.
Thought I might drive on just one set of tires,
But no!
Read on another blog that Ontario passed a law to
make R compounds illegal on the road.
Talking about understeer- the BMW 135 owns that term.
I run max front camber and big front tires And usually
it works well, but sometimes it will fail to turn
and I run wide.
Looks like the R compound will not stop this.
Trail braking and now left foot braking really help.
Use big slip angles and force it to rotate and stop
It from understearing.
This is a stock car without suspension mods.
I run about 2.2 - camber
The OEM front rubber lasted about 1 hour.
Dunlops Z-1 work well as long as the car rotates
Or else they can over heat and get slippery

[cfossum]

I'll go ahead and point out the obvious.
When "the car fails to turn", it suggests that your entry speed into each turn is simply too fast.
If you are still scrubbing speed via understeer as you pass the apex, then you are trying to carry too much speed. Believe it or not, that is the slow way around a track.
Use more brakes before turn in. Your goal is to be on the throttle as you pass the apex. Squeeling tires are fine, but avoid terminal understeer. This will ultimately drop your lap times, and increase tire life.
-Carl

[Track wheels]

"Dunlops Z-1 work well as long as the car rotates
Or else they can overheat and get slippery"

Want to continue to my question:

Do you think an R compound ie Hoosier will change the way the car turns.
Will the rear stick so well that it will be difficult to have it rotate?
I know some will say you are not slowing down enough ... slow in - fast out.
The Strong tendency to understeer in the 135 is causing cupping problems on the front tires in
one car I`ve seen. It had Toyo 888`s. Another techique, which sucks, is to point and shoot- the steering wheel is
mostly unwound when the power is applied- not the fast way.
Do you find that with sticky rubber you can still work the slip angles and balance the car throughout the turn?
Hope this question doesn`t end up in the racing for dummies book. I am planning tire choices etc. on the feedback.

[cfossum]

No tire will cure the problem of going too fast for corner entry.
I now agree with you. You shouldn't drive in the rain.

Back to your question. I've found that by switching to a tire like the RA1, the car's balance and behavior is very similar to that of driving on street tires, just faster. Understeer and oversteer problems that exist on street tires will still exhibit themselves on race rubber. It's just that the threshold is higher. The exception is braking. On race rubber, it will appear that you will have more rear brake bias. This is due to the increased weight transfer to the front under braking with race tires. You will have a higher grip threshold, so the front will grip more, so you'll get more weight transfer, so you will have less weight on the rear. This could lead to rear lockup, or on the plus side, trail braking will be more effective to get the car to rotate.

So, its commonly accepted that RA1s and similar (Nitto, Kumho) tires have something of a progressive slip. However, it used to be commonly accepted that Hoosiers give less warning, and simply let go when they've had enough. I don't use them anymore, they may be different.

Now, I am both cheap and lazy. I change tires as infrequently as possible. My tires are all old hand-me-downs from a sponsored spec miata racer from 2003-2007. I've driven them on the street often, and have never experienced what people call "heat cylced out". I don't even know what that could mean.., they get hard and crusty? Hasn't happened to me, ever. I suspect it may exist, but it hasn't slowed me down enough to recognize it.
-Carl

[Track wheels]

Carl, that is the kind of info I was hoping to get.
It sounds like I would be smart to forget about Hoosiers simply
because their limits will be beyond my ability
But on the other hand a RA-1 will be controllable.

"No tire will cure the problem of going too fast for corner entry.
I now agree with you. You shouldn't drive in the rain."

I did not follow what that meant.

Just to add something- this car drives neutral in the rain
and has very safe handling on Dunlop Z-1.
it`s the aquaplanning on not quite full depth rubber that caught me out.

[Track wheels]

Does anyone use the R3 Head and Neck restraint system here?
In the stock class, driving a car with many air bags, do you think safety is covered
or does the weight of a helmet put you at risk of severe injuries that
would make the R3 good insurance.
I understand it works wth a 3 point belt and no shoulder straps are needed.

Robert

[blindsidefive0]

Carl, what are you talking about - you always told me that drifting was the fastest way through any corner:

[Track wheels]

Lots of info. Great help.
But Carl " don't drive in the rain" - now that hurt.
As with that Drifting thing , you guys pull no punches.
That apparently rooky-ish question about whether
R compound could fix an understeer tendency may have
upset you, but I've read in here that no question is too stupid,
so please have patience.
The correct speed will almost always deal with a stock
Understearing car, and finding that speed on the track is
half the fun but sometimes like when I'm blasting down T4
Mosport or flying out of the "S"s at WGI and it's front
Wheels give it up the ghost, and the car starts heading
off the track, I dream of the tire that would save my ass.

Love the Track
Robert