street stock tires

[dinggos8mybaby]

It all comes down to saying - Ok, Let`s let our people run on Street Tires and assign a time advantage to them
because, in the spirit of competition , It gives them a fair shot .
Lets make it that simple. Choose any tire you what , if you choose a street tire, Comscc will
Cut " X " number of seconds from your trail time.
This does not need enforcers. If a driver wants a time cut because he is on street tires ,
he can apply for this at registration on the day of the event.
I know I need a lot more instruction and theirs no limit to what one can learn
but
can`t we find an acceptable alternative that does not force some of us to wear Hoosiers.
The Tire Companies are not going to like this.

The competitive nature of what we do on track days inspires us to push and find the limits of our cars, hopefully without exceeding them. Rewarding participants for driving slower seems to countermand what we are trying to accomplish... i understand the first goal of any track day is to finish with your car in one piece, but please remember you are the one behind the wheel, and it will not go faster than you tell it to. Most all off's I have seen were the direct result of someone pushing harder than before or trying new things. Regardless of what kind of tires someone is using if they exceed the limits of their car the will end up off the track. The most important thing to remember is that you are at the track to enjoy what you are doing. Don't worry about winning or being competitive if it takes the fun out of driving the track. My 2 cents....

[dinggos8mybaby]

Now to play the devils advocate... I have just looked at the 2010 rule book and noticed a discrepancy between tire rules for street stock, and street touring / prepared... and I quote:

Street Stock - section IX - Wheels and tires
"Tires shall be of "as delivered" construction, DOT approved with no undertread showing (for safety reasons), and either be
listed in THE TIRE GUIDE or be available in three or more rim diameters."

While Street Touring and Street Prepared both say the same... (Section X and XI)
"A. Tires must be DOT approved, with no undertread showing (For safety reasons), and either be listed in THE TIRE
GUIDE or be available in three or more rim diameters. RECAPS ARE NOT ALLOWED."

I would interpret "as delivered" construction to mean that if R compound tires were not available on your car from the factory then they are not allowed as they are of a different construction. While street touring and street prepared just say DOT approved.

I understand the difficulty in policing this but that is the rule as stated... However I think we all know what an R compound tire is and understand that very few, if any cars come from the factory with them, and therefore with a little common sense we could manage the task. Also i believe it is up to the owner of the car to provide the burden of proof ( ie... that R compounds were available from the factory) not the club so it would be on the driver to prove that the tires they are running are of "as delivered construction"

my four cents...

[cfossum]

Even some good drivers blame their equipment, but almost all bad ones do.
Blaming one's tires is a copout. You need to adjust to track conditions. Those guys in the incidents mentioned just ran out of talent.

http://www.turnzero.com/technical_resou ... _generator press "generate new excuse" until you find one that works for you.

Its interesting: Elsewhere on this forum, folks are trying to loosen up the rules, like allowing light flywheels, engine swaps, etc. But here is a suggestion to tighten the rules!
The rules set is a compromise, it needs to be. If we have people pushing both ways, then the rules must already be in the right place.
-Carl

[cfossum]

I just looked up Toyo RA1, Hoosier R6, Nitto NT01, and Khumo V700 on sites like Tire Rack, Discount Tire Direct, and some other one that sold Toyo. I saw no mention of the term "R compound" in any of them.
-Carl

[imgon]

I can understand your desire to level the playing field but unlike other series where you are running similar cars, we have a very interesting mix of cars all lumped into a class. That in itself makes it tough to keep it level. Tires do have a significant impact on your time but it is way more important to have a good driver. As an example at the last TT at NHMS I ran some borrowed older R compounds ( I had corded mine in an earlier session) and had a fairly good time trial (for me), ran a 1:26.08. After time trials I put on street tires (320 treadwear vs 30) and went out with an instructor for open track. I was doing 1:32-1:34 lap times with the two of us in the car, after a few laps I asked the instructor to drive so I could see what lines and choices he thought worked. After just 4 laps his times went from 1:32 down to 1:26. I thought I had been pushing the car to its limits while driving by myself but clearly I was driving to my limits. That brings me to the other point you mention. Stickys that lead to crashes. It has been my experience that different tires have different thresholds of warnings. My street tires for example howl loudly for quite some time when pushed before they let go, plenty of warning that you are nearing their ability to grip. I had a set of Falken Azenzis that had a very quick warning, they squealed for about a 1/2 second and then let go. The R compounds I run, I'm not sure I have ever heard them make any noise, you just slide alot more or go off. It is all about choices and compromises. You also need to know your limits and the equipment's limits. I run a very low budget and my goal is not to win TT's or championships but to have a ton of fun driving my car, if I win an event that would be awesome. That said I am less concerned with running the latest and best equipment and more interested in learning how to drive, staying safe and having fun. Someday if I win the lottery I'll get a fast car. So I guess my point is, run what you feel comfortable with and spend what you feel is appropriate and have fun. I looked at the rules for tires in SS and as someone else mentioned it states tires shall be in "as delivered construction", to me that means street tires. I know that some SS cars run R compounds, I think they may not be in compliance with the rule, even though the R compounds are DOT rated they would never be delivered on a new car. I guess my point is I understand your concern that if you run street tires and your competitors are running R's you are at a disadvantage but if they are within the rules you need to decide how important it is to you to be at the top of your class. My recommendation is just have fun, learn as much as you can and be safe

[breakaway500]

"Tires shall be of "as delivered construction", DOT approved with no undertread showing (for safety reasons), and either be
listed in THE TIRE GUIDE or be available in three or more rim diameters."

"As delivered tire construction" is not the same as saying "as delivered tire compound".

This rule merely says to me,if it came with steel belted radials,you need to use a steel belted radial. Nothing more. The construction design. It does NOT mention compounds or a specific tread pattern (or lack thereof,other than being worn down to the cords)

Debatable,like most any rule...

And besides,street tires suck on track.

[DanDarcy]

"as delivered construction" means the type of tire construction ----bias ply, radial, and what ever other type of construction may be out there (1920s solid ?)

We as drivers, have to remember, that the car only goes as fast as we make it go. If it rains , drive slower. I like driving in the rain, you learn the limits much quicker at much lower speeds. Just remember to drive slower.

You see most of your carnage on "R" series rubber because all of your faster and more serious drivers use "R" rubber and they are the drivers who push the limits. It has nothing to do with "R" type rubber, just the driver.

As far as tire noise at the limit-- The Hoosier R6s on my heavy Mustang (3700#) sequel like a banshee at the limit yet the Rs on my Lotus Elise just let go with out a sound. In my case, it is not the tire but the car that makes the noise difference at the limit.

Don't worry too much about tires, just come to COMSCC to have fun and improve yourself. Try to beat your past times not the class track record. Enjoy

[Özgür]

Almost all "off" situations are results of driver error; the car doesn't drive itself off the road. And, exploring the limits does not mean the driver has to go off, etc.

Having said that, different tires absolutely have different behaviors in different conditions. As a generalization, non-competition oriented street tires do offer more uniform grip across a wider range of slip angles, which means when the driver makes a mistake and moves beyond the optimal slip angle of tire and lateral grip starts to fall, it doesn't fall off as dramatically (as compared to competition oriented tires), and the driver has more time to react and correct.

Is that good enough of a reason to rule against competition oriented DOT tires? Probably not. It's up to the driver to decide where he/she feels most comfortable, but that doesn't mean the drivers who are comfortable with competition DOT tires should be penalized.

On another thread, I presented another point of view for regulating DOT competition tires in showroom stock classes only, which has more to do with what showroom stock means to different people, and how that is associated with having a more level playing field and some of the logistics associated with hauling track wheels around (for that class only).

Finally, I don't see the point about a more experienced driver will always be faster, etc. So what? Then why are there any classes at all? We should all compete in one class, and if someone is truly wicked fast, he/she should be able to win regardless of the variation in equipment? In other words, trying to level out the playing field is always a consideration, and driver skill/talent is a separate variable. Ideally, we would all be using the same equipment and the lap times would be an indicator of driver skill only.

[breakaway500]

"Then why are there any classes at all? We should all compete in one class"....

I like you,Osgur!

There are venues that offer Spec series racing for those that wish to do so,on specified tires. The problem I see having a spec tire in the SS classes at COM are the wide range of cars that qualify to run in the SS classes,and the tire size requirements for each one would would prohibit specifying a particular size/brand/style for everyone.

You could limit the compound rating to say a minimum 120 wear rating for all SS classes,but that would require a rules change,which you could submit.

Worth a try, if you feel compelled to do so!

[Özgür]

I wasn't suggesting there should be a spec tire for SS classes. I am aware of the various spec racing series--not that that is what COM should consider. I understand the playing field will never be truly "level". Anyway, I made my point in the other thread, so I don't mean to recreate it here. Just trying to point out that the "better driver will be faster regardless of equipment" argument does not really get us anywhere. If that was the basis for determining who should win, there shouldn't be any classes at all and we should just show up, drive what we've got, and compare times. That's what I meant.

[dinoracer]

I believe the phrase "as delivered construction" is intended to mean that "doctoring" of tires is not allowed - Shaving of "street" type tires, or use of softening compound.

[Track wheels]

There is a general concensus that we want to go as fast as we can, so why would we want to go
slower on street tires? And God forbid having a street tired car win because of a handicap score time!
Another opinion commonly expressed is you can race on a tire that you can afford and when you are ready and able , you can try
a faster sticky tire. I can go faster on a sticky right now but I can learn more if I try harder with what I current use.
Don`t worry about competition, just enjoy the time on the track.
Well I want competition. I can`t help it but I want to beat the next car.
Also, accidents happen to cars with Sticky rubber because these drivers are pushing the hardest and these are the tires
fast guys choose to use.
Check this out:
One I of the cars that I mentioned previously that was wrecked at WGI was driven by an instructor.
When I was at Mid-Ohio my instructor had two separate offs wth me as a student in his car, with R compounds, on a dry track.
My instructor at Mosport put R compounds on his car in the afternoon. He gains a automatic 10 miles per hour on the
straight that leads into turn 10 and said he had a moment in 11 that he somehow saved and would have ended up in a big
mess in the armco.
I was at Monticello and my instructor has an off, while I`m the passenger, at the kink at the end of the long back straight
running R compounds.
This is only my opinion, I think these tires are contributing to there problem offs.
These drivers are not chumps.
You know you can have a car that can get you into trouble, fast, when it is not set up correctly.
When expert drivers are having some serious offs, I think there my be a problem with some of the tires these people
are driving on.
I don`t think we can always blame the driver.
I think sometimes the tire was more than most really good drivers could handle.
Sometimes it`s the loose nut behind the wheel, but it could be that the tire companies say - look... you want a really
fast tire- Ok Here You Go - but they know that not too many drivers are going to be safe because the
tire`s character is speed and not at the limit brake away warnings.

I think it is time that basic street stock should be finding a place for
drivers who can compete fairly with a basic, safe non- R compound tire.

[breakaway500]

Saying R compound tires cause wrecks/offs is just like saying large spoons cause people to become fat.

If you feel compelled to run on street tires for safety sakes,there is nothing stopping you. If you are not fast,don't complain, or expect everyone else to slow down so you can beat them.

If you feel Street Stock classes should be on "street" tires for time trials,submit a rules change to the board of directors for consideration,but I would not hold your breath on the outcome! However,any active member can submit a rules change. Go for it!

[jlwhorf]

Hey Track Wheels, get a life!! We get dozens of trolls come on to this forum and tells our rules are wrong. In the 14 years I have been a member and the 10 years I have run with COM, R compound cars have been allowed in all classes, and just becouse you think that SS cars should run hard compound tires, do you think we should just change our rules to accomodate you???? If you want to become a member, attend our events, attend board meetings, then we might take you seriously, other than that you are just wasting bandwidth.

[DanDarcy]

Track Wheels : It is easier to win with talent than to win by rule change

PS: you need some new instructors who know how to stay on the track ! Except for the rare mechanical problem, it is always the "nut behind the wheel" that causes a solo off !