street stock tires

[Track wheels]

Can we limit the wear rating on Street stock to keep the expenses down.
I`m looking at running a car next year and I do not like the fact that
one can run almost any sticky tire money can buy.
Is that right or did I miss someting?
I am just checking things out here,
can anybody help to clarify this out for a newby?

[chaos4NH]

We have Street Touring (ST), Street Prepared (SP) and Showroom Stock (SS) classes and all allow any DOT certified tires. Wear ratings might be considered if a member suggested a rules change. Rule change form is here: http://www.comscc.org/rules/submission-form/

[Track wheels]

I`m running in SSGT for 2011 based on the new rules.
I have not found the tire rules section so please forgive if I am missing stuff in here.
When I ran autox , if you used R compounds, 2 seconds were added to your times.
Now this was on a under one minute course. Miatas ( with no induction) were running in at 42 seconds,Z06 ran 43 seconds
I`m guessing here, but on a track like WGI , the difference could be between 5 to 8 seconds and maybe a lot more.
Top racers will have a clear idea what advantage can be attributed to the wear rating for each tire.
I think some racers have the money and the talent to drive the ultimate sticky tire and some day I might be there
but as for now I worry about the cost and the less forgiving nature of a super low wear rated tire.
I am glad this subject is not taboo.
Am I the only one who thinks about this ?

Or should I just join in on these tire wars, be a man ( or woman ) get some hard cash out and mount the stickest dot rated
tire I can buy and see if I can learn to control a car with a 100% stock suspension.Could be a lot a fun,
but I think there should

be an acceptable alternative.

[CP]

Lap the track on whatever you can afford and try to enjoy your time out there. In the "Spec" class that I race in, there are people with $5000 salvaged home built cars with 2 year old heat cycled tires racing against $30,000 professionally built cars with brand new shaved tires and race shop support. Classes cannot always be tailored to suit the brokest guy out there...

[jlwhorf]

Depends what you priorities are: You can get a set of durable tires and just have a blast running laps. You could run sticking tires to get max performance every lap, or even what some people do, have a set of hockey pucks for the school days and practice sessions, and a set of gumballs for the 3 lap time trial. Hope this helps.

[Track wheels]

NASA, for example gives you an alternative.
If you run under a certain width of tire you can lower the wear rating and use a tire
from that group of stickier rubber.
If you ran the standard tire width for your class but decided to run a stickier tire,
you will likely get bumped up one class. Tires are all grouped within their own wear rating.

There may be a chance here to improve the competitive element and put drivers on a more common level.

I`m someone coming from the outside, who doesn`t know much about Comscc, other than I`m impressed.
I am turned off though by the wide ranging differences simply being ignored that relate to the tire one chooses to use.
I do want to focus on cars that are mostly stock - that are daily drivers, but I think all drivers would welcome
a reasonable attempt to apply a formula that could help a little bit. ie here`s my humble attempt:

1. Use the NASA tire groups and pick or set a stardard width and tire wear rating for a class. (I would only start with Street Stock )
2. Have a committee to add or subtract seconds/lap for those tire groups.( Optional : Some tracks may need special + or - that would add on if needed)
3. Do the same for tire width- either over or under the stardard set for a class you can add or subtract seconds.

This example or another better one could be tried on a tempory basis to gauge the support within Comscc, to see if drivers
enjoy a more level competitive playing field and take this idea as something that can build support.
Does anyone else want to drop in ?

This is just my best guess to see if drivers

[Track wheels]

Depends what you priorities are: You can get a set of durable tires and just have a blast running laps. You could run sticking tires to get max performance every lap, or even what some people do, have a set of hockey pucks for the school days and practice sessions, and a set of gumballs for the 3 lap time trial. Hope this helps.

Yes this helps but you can see that without some way to
level the playing field, where tires are involved, everyone is focused on
really sticky rubber, at some point, and that doesn`t have to be that way.

I think it would be just as much fun in time trails going against the exact
same car on hoosiers ( carrying a say - 6 second handicap ) and me on a street tires
knowing each driver has a fighting shot at the trophy.

[bhoss]

My question is who is going to police all of this - who is going to inspect all of the tires for size, wear rating and size before someone goes out for the Time Trail. Who is going to set the time boogie - what if it is wet or rains. How many heat cycles do your sticky tires have? Too many and they are just as slow as the street tires.

Way too many variable - keep it the way it is.

The one variable here is the driver - an experienced driver should always outperform the inexperienced/student 95% of the time - Does not matter what tires you have on

[Track wheels]

My question is who is going to police all of this - who is going to inspect all of the tires for size, wear rating and size before someone goes out for the Time Trail. Who is going to set the time boogie - what if it is wet or rains. How many heat cycles do your sticky tires have? Too many and they are just as slow as the street tires.

Way too many variable - keep it the way it is.

The one variable here is the driver - an experienced driver should always outperform the inexperienced/student 95% of the time - Does not matter what tires you have on

To most of the regular racers, why change things - don`t fix it if it aint broke.

I`m thinking to myself - OK were can I get the best deal on a set of wheels with Hoosiers!!!

But let`s try to see this from another perspective.

Controlling and policing engine, suspension , and whatever modifications can be difficult with
quite a number of rules. It always comes down to the racers trust and honesty to play fair and
let the best driver and car win.

Now when I want to go a little faster than the next guy, I know , all things being equal,
I can mount my fresh sticky rubber and punch my ticket and cut my times immediately.
To me that is a barrier to the everday Joe ( which sounds like most guys I know) who can drive well but wants to have some money
left over to pay for the track fees, fuel cost there and back and at the track,
a room to sleep in and some food to eat. And he still thinks about his
wife and kids and all those bills.

The regulars can say Ok there is another way that will give the low cost race a little help.
It needs to be easy to police and not interfere with the current tradition or customs.

Here`s a far simpler idea that can be tried without upsetting the apple cart.
See NASA RULES PAGE 22
Let`s take their No. 1 group ie Hoosiers A6 and set that as the base tire for everyone.
Let`s take their No. 2 group ie UTQG treadwear rating of 40 or less and assign a time reduction... say 1 second or whatever.
No. 3 group ie Toyo RA-1, Micheline Sport Cup, UTQG OF 50 TO 130 and assign another time reduction ...say 1 second plus 1 second from
the previous group
No. 4 could be UTQG OF >131 ie Dunlop Z1 Drop another second or whatever gets decided by Comscc as being reasonable.

Let someone else jump in here.
Maybe I am the only one who wants to have a look at this.
Time will tell- it`s a long winter.

[cfossum]

The existing rule is so simple, I don't see any point in trying to complicate it.
DOT approved tires in street classes. Done.
-Carl

[jadams]

If you are looking to save money, you can run any tires that you want as long as they are DOT tires. Just because everyone else had Hoosiers, or similar R comount tires doesnt mean that you have to run the same. Just use your street tires at the beginning and it will give you an opportunity to determine if you like it, and you would not spend much money in the process. As you gain more experience, you can then look into updgrading your tires. I really mean no offense in my next statement, but if you truly don't have experience on a road course and you are a noobie, it is highly, highly unlikely that you would be in the running for winning a time trial anyway until you gain experience. (unless of course you are some kind of natural) So my recommendation is just bring a car that it is safe, has some tires in good shape and get some experience from some of our clubs great instructors.

[chaos4NH]

Please, please keep in mind were are a VOLUNTER CLUB, not a business entity like NASA with paid "enforcers" etc. As Carl said keep it simple.
I started out on premium street tires with my Speed 3 and soon found my tire costs were HIGHER due to the destruction imparted on those tires once I was able to use my car closer to it's max potential. At that point in time I discovered that I needed a second set of tires just to be sure I had rubber to drive home on! Hhhhhmm, well, I guess a set of dedicated track tires began to make sense, and I found that $200 each for Kumho V710's was not much more that a premium Ultimate Summer tire (as graded by Tire Rack).
Truly, start out on street tires, learn your potential and that of your car, then move up to some stickies to really enjoy the experience!
While we are on the subject of "stock" let me address the BRAKE issue. You will also find as you gain experience, and are able to driver your car flat out, that stock brake pads are NOT going to get you there.

[brucesallen]

But I always drive flat out.

[chaos4NH]

But I always drive flat out.

But you don't use your brakes either!

[Track wheels]

Please, please keep in mind were are a VOLUNTER CLUB, not a business entity like NASA with paid "enforcers" etc. As Carl said keep it simple.
I started out on premium street tires with my Speed 3 and soon found my tire costs were HIGHER due to the destruction imparted on those tires once I was able to use my car closer to it's max potential. At that point in time I discovered that I needed a second set of tires just to be sure I had rubber to drive home on! Hhhhhmm, well, I guess a set of dedicated track tires began to make sense, and I found that $200 each for Kumho V710's was not much more that a premium Ultimate Summer tire (as graded by Tire Rack).
Truly, start out on street tires, learn your potential and that of your car, then move up to some stickies to really enjoy the experience!
While we are on the subject of "stock" let me address the BRAKE issue. You will also find as you gain experience, and are able to driver your car flat out, that stock brake pads are NOT going to get you there.

Maybe the monitor might want to move this out of rules into a general discussion slot.


I`m a newbie to this form, and my first Comscc event was WGI in this last fall.
But I was cleared after a 4 lap check ride and got a license.
Have a few years in A groups. Went to Mid Ohio as a newbie this year , started in group C.
Learned the hard way why most people
park their cars when it rains there
- that`s a whole nother story.
Did one session, got moved to B
Finished up on the second day, still in one piece, with a nice compliment from another driver telling me
I lapped him twice in one 25 minute session.
I just got an totally new brake system because my calipers were badly burned and
I had been waiting over a month for the remachining of new parts to be done and felt I had waited long enough.
I have gone through lots of Hawk Plus pads and rotors. Not a novice on the track but I respect the fact that
I don`t know everything and I pay to God I Don`t meet my maker on the track in some serious Off - have only a couple so far.

Now this leads up to my worries.
Like I had a real fear of tracking in the rain.
So last spring it happened- it was pouring buckets in the morning of a scheduled track day.
I felt like driving home but thought I would face my fear head on.
All expert drivers/racers with noone asking for help except me.
I was told I will be fine - just take it easy.
I said please get me an instructor who can keep me safe and has webbed feet and duck feathers .
Well I made it through that day - it was early spring at Watkins Glen - but not everyone made it.
Two cars in two incidents ended up taking out a big piece of the baby blue armcos.
They blamed their Tires.

At that Comscc event this past fall at least two cars had serious offs with big damage and I was there to hear that
they blamed their tires.

At Mosport just 3 week before that, I was in the expert group when we were Black Flagged in because
a new Infinity M , on Hoosiers lost it in turn Ten . Both ends of his car were smashed in 4 feet - it was bad.

So this leads up to how I got here in the rules section.
I am really afraid of " Hoosiers " and similar sticky rubber.
Why is that ?
Because I have seen a lot of serious offs in my few years of doing track events
and it seems that each of these cars are running very Sticky rubber.
Aside from all the complaints I hear about the money
I also hear about how it happened so fast I was already gone, it was too late - just remember to
"Take Your Hands Off The Steering Wheel as You Smash Into The .... Because You Will Break Both Your Arms !!!!

So I have resisted the move to R compounds. I get over 15,000 miles on my street/track tires and run as many as ten track events/ year.
I`m not the fastest car in my group but these tires have saved my bacon more times than I can remember.

So there`s the money factor , but even more important, is the safety factor.

It all comes down to saying - Ok, Let`s let our people run on Street Tires and assign a time advantage to them
because, in the spirit of competition , It gives them a fair shot .
Lets make it that simple. Choose any tire you what , if you choose a street tire, Comscc will
Cut " X " number of seconds from your trail time.
This does not need enforcers. If a driver wants a time cut because he is on street tires ,
he can apply for this at registration on the day of the event.
I know I need a lot more instruction and theirs no limit to what one can learn
but
can`t we find an acceptable alternative that does not force some of us to wear Hoosiers.
The Tire Companies are not going to like this.