Classifying a "Pro Touring" style 69 Mustang

[Rdionne]

Hello COM club members,

My Father and I are thinking about building a 1969 Mustang Fastback for use at COM Events and summer driving fun, but We need help to figure out what class the car would be in with our current plans so that we can build it to spec. Below I will list the Modifications to the car and I would like to know if my original assumption of Street Prepared is correct. I would also appreciate any Input from members who drive older cars at these events.

Chassis;
All steel Body panels and frame
DOT Glass
Subframe connectors with X Brace (with Driveshaft loop), Engine Bay Bracing (Export Bar and Monte Carlo bar)

Brakes;
2003-2004 Mach1/SVT Cobra 4 wheel Disk (Standard Rotors and Steel Braided lines)

Wheels;
Late model Mustang (most likely Bullit/Mach 1/ Cobra 17")
Tires to fit (255/50's most likely)

Suspension;
Front: Total Control Products Bolt in Coil over Single adjustment(http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/vas_bolton-co.html)
Rear: Stock 428CJ leaf springs with Single adjustment shocks
Ride Height: 1" lowered

Engine:
351ci "Cleveland" 4v (Stock internals, heads about 10.5:1CR)
Edelbrock Aluminum intake
Crane "F302" cam
Headers

Transmission;
Ford Motorsport "Z" T-5 or Tremec 5spd.
Cable or Hydro clutch

Miscellaneous:
Aftermarket Bucket seats (Don't have a brand yet)
5 point Harness's
Rack and Pinion Steering conversion

As for a Roll cage what is the standard for the number of bars? we were thinking the Halo, Driver and passenger outer bars with Roof Box, Harness bar and perhaps an X bar set going to the roof to the Rear seat area.

I would appreciate any advice...even it is just give up and buy a newer mustang.

Thanks,
Rob Dionne

[dinoracer]

Rob

Sounds like a good build. You're right, it's an SPA car. If you flare the fenders, which you shouldn't because you've got plenty of room, to goes to PA.

Any particular reason for the Cleveland? You can get as good power from a stroked 351W, and the parts are more available.

Roll cage sounds good. I used a pre-cut kit from S-K racing in PA myself, if you're thinking of building it yourself.

Good luck -sounds like a nice car.

Tom Cannon- Former 1965 Mustang SPA owner

Why is there suddenly all this interest in old cars now that I've sold mine ?

[Rdionne]

Hello Tom,

I chose the Cleveland because it is what I have on hand, I have a 302 and 390 as well. But I figure that the 302 will be too little to make a good street car with this years Higher weight. I have about 1/2 the parts to make a Boss, but that a heap of money as well. a 302 is a great choice for everything up to about 67-68, but not 69+. The FE motor is just too damn expensive to put a 5 speed behind, the Car is originally a 428 CJ R code (maybe one day, when I get the disposable income it will again). This is a really Low budget Project, so its what we have around the house for the most part.

I am doing this with this car because its a hell of a lot cooler than a newer mustang where there are still thousands all around. I figure I can be unique on the Track!

Thanks,
Rob

[brucesallen]

I suggest signing up for a Mentor. i can assign you a Mustang guy.

[Rdionne]

Hello Bruce,

Thank you for the offer, I will most certainly do so when we get much further along in the project. At the moment we are in the very early planning stages and probably wont start building till the spring.

[dinoracer]

Glad to see someone picking up the old Mustang banner while I take my Miata detour....You won't be winning any class championships with this choice, but you'll have a hell of a time!

PM me anytime you like, I've got a bit of old mustang open track knowledge I happy to share.

[peterfontana]

Hi Rob,

You are describing an SPA project. I ran a '69 Mustang convertible from '99 through '04 in SPA. It was dressed out like a GT-350. Without flares I found the most tire I could fit were 245/45 front and 255/50 rear, on Vintage 48s 16x8 (Vintage 45's on the street). I had a SVO block Windsor with a 4" stroke and Windsor Sr. heads and a custom cam - it made 478hp at 5750. With a Tremec TKO, PBR brakes it was fun to drive. I wanted to keep the look stock, so I used stock seats and a bolt-in 4 point roll bar.

See pix of it at http://rides.webshots.com/album/563226735ysCXFP. A video at Lime Rock: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563398120CyWRzS.

Some comments on your choices:

> Subframe connectors with X Brace (with Driveshaft loop), Engine Bay Bracing (Export Bar and Monte Carlo bar)
Necessary. Also do the competition Boss 302 shock tower reinforcement.

> 2003-2004 Mach1/SVT Cobra 4 wheel Disk (Standard Rotors and Steel Braided lines)
Good - don't scrimp here.

> Late model Mustang (most likely Bullit/Mach 1/ Cobra 17")
Late model wheels have a lot of backspacing that can cause issues that will cost you anything you may save from using used wheels. Check the Vintage Wheel Works and others - there are plenty of offerings in 16" and 17" sizes for these cars. Maybe you can get 9" in the back. See http://www.vintagewheelworks.com/produc ... s/v45/17x9 and http://www.vintagewheelworks.com/produc ... s/v60/17x9 . Totally tight.

> Front: Total Control Products Bolt in Coil over Single adjustment(http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/vas_bolton-co.html)
Sounds good.

> Rear: Stock 428CJ leaf springs with Single adjustment shocks
I ran fiberglass rear leafs - great weight savings.

> Ride Height: 1" lowered
Plan on frigging with this a bit. Lower is better until you start grinding the header flanges.

> 351ci "Cleveland" 4v (Stock internals, heads about 10.5:1CR)
Build for reliability first. Once you figure out how to put down 3 laps in a row within 0.5 seconds of each other, then add power.

> Headers
Dump downward to the ground in front of the rear axle to avoid tailpipes. This will save weight, back pressure and reduce noise.

> Transmission; Ford Motorsport "Z" T-5 or Tremec 5spd.
I've blown up a dumpster full of T5s. Run the Tremec TKO. It's cheaper in the long run.

> Cable or Hydro clutch
No cable. Hydro. Use an external slave.

> Aftermarket Bucket seats (Don't have a brand yet)
Must do - I had stock high-backs with a 5-point harness and I slid all around.

> Rack and Pinion Steering conversion
Must do. Run power with w KRC race-style pump. I had a 16:1 stock power box converted to manual and it took some muscle. Not exactly the best thing for finesse...

> As for a Roll cage what is the standard for the number of bars? we were thinking the Halo, Driver and passenger outer bars with Roof Box, Harness bar and perhaps an X bar set going to the roof to the Rear seat area.
In SPA you are running the complete stock shell so it is a supplement. See what the Trans Am Boss 302s ran as an additional reference.

> I would appreciate any advice...even it is just give up and buy a newer mustang.
ADVICE: decide if you are doing this to BUILD a car which you can drive on the track, or are you looking to be a competitive DRIVER? This is a very cool project for the BUILDER. That's the mindframe I had when I started my Mustang. It was very satisfying from that perspective.

My business got busier so it was harder to make the time to keep it in top form. Even if I could keep it running and learn how to drive it well, the car itself was somewhat outclassed in SPA - front-biased 3400 lbs on 245s/255s with 480 hp.

So I could work on being a better driver I sold the Mustang and got a '92 911. Even with my son and I co-driving (8 practice sessions on a race day), the most mechanical thing I needed to do was swap in race pads, bolt on slicks, and wipe up after a pesky oil leak. 3060 lbs, 215s/255s and 250 hp in SS/GT. We've seen some 1sts and seconds and I feel I'm learning the car pretty well.

If you want to ask about my trip down this road, feel free to email me at peterf@pathfindermda.com.

- Peter

[dinoracer]

> I would appreciate any advice...even it is just give up and buy a newer mustang.
ADVICE: decide if you are doing this to BUILD a car which you can drive on the track, or are you looking to be a competitive DRIVER? This is a very cool project for the BUILDER. That's the mindframe I had when I started my Mustang. It was very satisfying from that perspective.

My business got busier so it was harder to make the time to keep it in top form. Even if I could keep it running and learn how to drive it well, the car itself was somewhat outclassed in SPA - front-biased 3400 lbs on 245s/255s with 480 hp.

+1 on this. I went the same route. I really enjoyed building my car, and really enjoyed driving it, most of the time. As Peter said, these old cars are big fun, but outgunned in SPA unless you're prepared to spend stupid money. If you bump to PA, it's actually easier - but then, at that point all you have is a shell that looks like a Mustang.

Don't let us discourage you though, if you like the car and want to run the track, we want to help as much as possible. And I know Peter, like me, will find his way back to the stable eventually....

[peterfontana]

Tom said:
> And I know Peter, like me, will find his way back to the stable eventually....

Yeah. But my next Mustang will be for the street. ('67 GT fb with a 2011 5.0 motor/trans. rack, a/c, cruise, p/win, parchment leather - imagine the luxury...)

[blindsidefive0]

Wow, didn't realize how little grip that Mustang had until I saw the LRP video (I only knew what it felt like getting on the highway in 3rd gear with cold street tires...fun). I can't imagine it was that fun at the track, 480hp that you can never use...

Also...isn't Mom's M3 the 1997 and your M3 the 1998?

[peterfontana]

Yeah - I put the sig together before I got the TX car.

[Rdionne]

Some comments on your choices:

> Subframe connectors with X Brace (with Driveshaft loop), Engine Bay Bracing (Export Bar and Monte Carlo bar)
Necessary. Also do the competition Boss 302 shock tower reinforcement.
The 428 CJ mustangs got the "wrap around" Shock towers same as the Boss 302, so I am good there

> 2003-2004 Mach1/SVT Cobra 4 wheel Disk (Standard Rotors and Steel Braided lines)
Good - don't scrimp here.
I was thinking of even spending the extra cash to get the Cobra R Brembro's for the front

> Late model Mustang (most likely Bullit/Mach 1/ Cobra 17")
Late model wheels have a lot of backspacing that can cause issues that will cost you anything you may save from using used wheels. Check the Vintage Wheel Works and others - there are plenty of offerings in 16" and 17" sizes for these cars. Maybe you can get 9" in the back. See http://www.vintagewheelworks.com/produc ... s/v45/17x9 and http://www.vintagewheelworks.com/produc ... s/v60/17x9 . Totally tight.

I will look into this, I can even get a custom back spacing to fit everything....Hmm

> Front: Total Control Products Bolt in Coil over Single adjustment(http://www.totalcontrolproducts.com/vas_bolton-co.html)
Sounds good.

> Rear: Stock 428CJ leaf springs with Single adjustment shocks
I ran fiberglass rear leafs - great weight savings.

> Ride Height: 1" lowered
Plan on frigging with this a bit. Lower is better until you start grinding the header flanges.

> 351ci "Cleveland" 4v (Stock internals, heads about 10.5:1CR)
Build for reliability first. Once you figure out how to put down 3 laps in a row within 0.5 seconds of each other, then add power.

> Headers
Dump downward to the ground in front of the rear axle to avoid tailpipes. This will save weight, back pressure and reduce noise.

> Transmission; Ford Motorsport "Z" T-5 or Tremec 5spd.
I've blown up a dumpster full of T5s. Run the Tremec TKO. It's cheaper in the long run.
I thought about as much

> Cable or Hydro clutch
No cable. Hydro. Use an external slave.

> Aftermarket Bucket seats (Don't have a brand yet)
Must do - I had stock high-backs with a 5-point harness and I slid all around.

> Rack and Pinion Steering conversion
Must do. Run power with w KRC race-style pump. I had a 16:1 stock power box converted to manual and it took some muscle. Not exactly the best thing for finesse...

> As for a Roll cage what is the standard for the number of bars? we were thinking the Halo, Driver and passenger outer bars with Roof Box, Harness bar and perhaps an X bar set going to the roof to the Rear seat area.
In SPA you are running the complete stock shell so it is a supplement. See what the Trans Am Boss 302s ran as an additional reference.

> I would appreciate any advice...even it is just give up and buy a newer mustang.
ADVICE: decide if you are doing this to BUILD a car which you can drive on the track, or are you looking to be a competitive DRIVER? This is a very cool project for the BUILDER. That's the mindframe I had when I started my Mustang. It was very satisfying from that perspective.
My dad and I were looking to build a Car that we could run on the track and be safe. I am not expecting to be "Competitive" for a championship, were out there to have fun and if I can pass a few cars along the way all the better.

So I could work on being a better driver I sold the Mustang and got a '92 911. Even with my son and I co-driving (8 practice sessions on a race day), the most mechanical thing I needed to do was swap in race pads, bolt on slicks, and wipe up after a pesky oil leak. 3060 lbs, 215s/255s and 250 hp in SS/GT. We've seen some 1sts and seconds and I feel I'm learning the car pretty well.
I am personally looking at buying a WRX/STi or a Legacy GT for a street car next year that will make an appearance or Two at events, after I get used to the Mustang. Those will be more competitive, but possibly less fun than the old mustang.

We still cant decide on an engine yet...My Dad keeps on screaming Big Block, So I don't even know if this will even get off the ground at this point. We shall see what happens, when it all thaws in the spring. Heck who know's, Maybe I will just run the Subaru or buy a late model Cobra if we can't get this project going.

[Rdionne]

So it has been decided....We are building a 390ci FE Big Block for the Mustang, I would have preferred the 351C but its not my car (fully). Looks like I will be buying an aluminum "Police Interceptor" Style intake for the engine. On the plus side though, We found that we have a Forged Steel 390 crank in the basement. so the engine should be pretty strong. so new engine specs:

390ci FE big Block
10-10.5:1 Compression
Steel Crank (ford HD Truck)
Police Interceptor camshaft (factory Ford Part)
"Police Interceptor" Intake (Edelbrock Performer RPM is closet available today)
Hooker Super comp headers

Looks like I have to redo the Spring rates that I wanted to compensate for the weight. Thought 70+ pound reduction in the intake alone will be nice, and the headers are lighter than the cast iron exhausting manifolds. Throttle off Understeer and Massive Throttle on Oversteer here we come!!!!

[John F]

Sounds like fun!

[peterfontana]

FE 390 - that's righteous old school. Back in the 80's an electrician (and Mopar maven) friend of mine was wiring up some machines at a machine shop and saw a bunch of old intakes sitting behind a milling machine. There were a few trips and six packs, and one dual-quad setup: it was a 427 Low Riser setup (maybe '63 vintage). I was putting a 390 in a 67' Mustang convertible at the time (T5 5 speed) and I got this manifold for about $75. I put a couple of 390 cfm Holleys on it and it was great! Perfect for the street - it had excellent throttle response. I drove that car 100,000 miles in 8 years (all seasons - it was my only car), and finally sold it because the frame rail where the steering box mounts was rusting through. But these carbs (model 1850) would have needed a bit of work for the track. For the track, a single carb is a much better place to be. The PI intake is a great pick for mid-range power without giving up much at all up top. Don't skimp on the carb (get a nice one - not a big one) - a Demon 750 set up for road racing will probably bolt right on and be ready to go. Call and talk to folks. Don't bother with anything bigger - you won't be making the power. A 750 can take you past 425 hp no problem.

But the point of this senile rambling is to point out that the stock rocker shafts were crap. I ended up breaking them and got some billet shafts. There are a fistful of other little things you've gotta take care of putting that motor together so it can live on the track. A lot was learned over the years on how to keep those motors alive (like how to work the oil circuits) so be sure you dig up a dinosaur machinist and recover the ancient lore. When I was putting my 390 together in '86 - '87 I has to dig to find guys left around who had done the FE thing in the 60's. By '69 the Boss '2 was the Happening Thing, and by '75 the FE was a relic.

Good luck.