BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

General chat that fellow COM'ers may be interested in.
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betelgeuse
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:50 pm

breakaway500 wrote: If the Atom is truly not a street legal registerable car,then every person driving one on the street (hundreds of them)are illegal,even though they have gone through all the legal steps in their states to do so,and even insurance companies are offering coverage for an inelligible road vehicle.
So,surely someone is wrong. Could it be the State Registry..and the Insurance companies,and the State inspection stations are all wrong...or could it be the TMI site information is incorrect?
The title they just gave John in N.H. stated the Atom IS a street legal vehicle,or he would have never been able to get it registered,insured,and inspected. Same goes with the ones sold In California.Or the ones sold in Arizona. Not to mention mine has a valid motor vehicle title in Vermont,and the other one I own has a valid Florida motor vehicle title.
Loopholes
breakaway500 wrote: The information on the TMI site is old and in error. Misinformation is not fact just because it is on the web.
It's Ariel website. I'm sure it means what it says. If they rewrite it to your satisfaction I suppose we can't believe that either because it's on the web.

It's really up to the COM stewards what class the Atom runs in. Given the performance of the Atom, I'm comfortable that they won't end up in my class.
I really don't mind giving up 150-200 hp to the Subaru's. At least they have doors, a hood and some weight to them, and you have to be a good driver to get them around the track quickly.
I really think you and Max will get many FTD trophies this year.
Good luck,
Greg
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by breakaway500 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:25 pm

It's not Ariels website,it is TMI's. They are not the same. TMI is a Canadian based company,and most of the literature on their site was moved over to their USA site when brammo in Ashland,Oregon,stopped building Atoms,and TMIATi was formed in Va. .There is a lot of old information that has not been updated.It was valid for Canada,but not the USA. They certainly won't rewrite anything because I ask them to.It's not like I work for them or something.If it's of any relief to you,the 2009 Atom3 that is signed up in SPB class for Monticello will be running in PB,as he does not have rear fenders,or a windshield and I told him he would have to move to PB a few days ago.Unless you have plans to move to PB,you will be...safe? My goal on track is not to win trophies. I just like to drive fast and learn.For me,this means light,agile cars.They are not very forgiving vehicles and your driving skills had better be sharp,because the car does what is told right away.It is quite different than driving a heavier car.You would have to try one to understand.Ultimately,I will end up in a formula car,and my Atom can return to street duty. To each,his own. Best of luck beating the Subarus. (no offense,Frank.. :wink: )
Last edited by breakaway500 on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by CP » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:26 pm

Just buy/build a Spec Miata and be done with it...all of you :D
-Cy
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by breakaway500 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:36 pm

"Just buy/build a Spec Miata and be done with it...all of you"

No,my next car will be lighter and more agile than the Atom. Not quite sure what..yet. F1000 maybe. Sometimes cars find you. Kind of how I ended up with the Atom... :wink:
Last edited by breakaway500 on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by CP » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:38 pm

How about a legit formula car? You wouldn't even have to buy new wheels/tires!
-Cy
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by breakaway500 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:40 pm

Naah..different bolt pattern,although the tires would be fine for an FA car. The wheels would fit my Miata...hmm..!
It's not what you drive, it's how you drive. "Lap times matter"

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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by chaos4NH » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:40 am

I spoke with the head of tech for White Mountain BMW yesterday at the NHMS Open House.
According to him, the BMW National BOD originally ruled that if a car passed, or exceeded the DOT 1995 rollover protection standards, they were good to go at BMW club HPDEs. He went on to say that after the national meeting last year, the BOD rescinded that decision and ruled that a full cage would be required in ALL convertibles. When I mentioned that some of our members ran with Boston last year without a cage, he said emphatically that it would NOT be allowed by Boston, or any other chapter, this year. He also said he was not 100% in favor of the policy but was required to enforce it. All you guys with supposed contacts with Boston Chapter better get on the phone with them and verify this. Just call me Sam, the myth buster.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by boltonite » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:17 am

AFAIK that rule applies to BMWCCA nationally-sponsored events (the annual Octoberfest DE school) only.

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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by CalypsoBean » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:47 pm

chaos4NH wrote:I spoke with the head of tech for White Mountain BMW yesterday at the NHMS Open House.
According to him, the BMW National BOD originally ruled that if a car passed, or exceeded the DOT 1995 rollover protection standards, they were good to go at BMW club HPDEs. He went on to say that after the national meeting last year, the BOD rescinded that decision and ruled that a full cage would be required in ALL convertibles. When I mentioned that some of our members ran with Boston last year without a cage, he said emphatically that it would NOT be allowed by Boston, or any other chapter, this year. He also said he was not 100% in favor of the policy but was required to enforce it. All you guys with supposed contacts with Boston Chapter better get on the phone with them and verify this. Just call me Sam, the myth buster.
supposed contacts? i'm a member of the chapter and was in fact a staff member last year. The rules for HPDE's for BMW Boston are listed as being the same as they were last year. It's all on the website.

the national meeting that you are talking about was indeed 'last year' - as in, before the season started. I contacted the Boston chapter specifically because of this meeting to make sure that they would continue allowing convertibles, and they did. It is up to individual chapters and their insurance policies.

I have posted this link already in this thread, but I will post it again for the click impaired:

http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDescr ... hools.aspx - note the '2010' in the link title.
Convertibles
Rules for CONVERTIBLES are as follows:

Definition for Convertibles and Cars with Removable Roof Sections
‘Convertibles’ are defined as cars with retractable tops, whether soft-top or folding hard-top.
‘Removable roof sections’ include targa tops and T-tops. These are characterized by part of a fixed body structure above the passenger compartment.

Participation Requirements - Convertibles
Convertibles are not allowed to participate in sessions driven at speed unless the car is equipped with the following minimum requirements:

* An approved roll bar or roll cage. Both driver and instructor sitting up right with helmets are below the top of the roll bar.
* Five (5) or Six(6) point harnesses for both driver and instructor where belts are properly routed.
* Arm Restraints

Participation Requirements - Removable Roof Sections
Cars with removable roof sections are allowed provided that both driver and instructor sitting up right with helmets are below the top of the roll bar or roof line.

Exclusions - Cars equipped only with factory pop-up posts or similarly activated rollover protection are not allowed.

Approval for Event
ALL convertibles must be approved by the Event Chair in advance. Please contact the registrar before the event to discuss your configuration. If the vehicle does not pass the on-site Tech Inspection with regard to the rules above, you will not be allowed to participate and no refund will be given. If you have an open convertible with an approved roll bar and we are not able to find an instructor who is willing to accompany you on the track, your entry fee will be refunded.

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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by chaos4NH » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:39 pm

Too bad there is so much information (right, wrong, or indifferent) coming out of the various chapters. I just posted what I was told face to face on Saturday.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by CalypsoBean » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:38 am

I verified the information I posted above with three officers of the Boston BMWCCA today. The two event chairs confirmed it all.

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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by breakaway500 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:46 am

I did receive a response from the Boston BMW club (Denis Freidman) who stated the Atom MAY be allowed at their events,but he was going to look into it further and get back to me with a more formal response.Not a NO,but not a yes. The email was encouraging. :sunny:
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by 91rs13 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:50 pm

chaos4NH wrote:I spoke with the head of tech for White Mountain BMW yesterday at the NHMS Open House.
According to him, the BMW National BOD originally ruled that if a car passed, or exceeded the DOT 1995 rollover protection standards, they were good to go at BMW club HPDEs. He went on to say that after the national meeting last year, the BOD rescinded that decision and ruled that a full cage would be required in ALL convertibles. When I mentioned that some of our members ran with Boston last year without a cage, he said emphatically that it would NOT be allowed by Boston, or any other chapter, this year. He also said he was not 100% in favor of the policy but was required to enforce it. All you guys with supposed contacts with Boston Chapter better get on the phone with them and verify this. Just call me Sam, the myth buster.
Sam--sorry to say he gave you bad info. I was at the DEC meeting in Dallas when they decided to modify the rules.
At that time they "clarified" the rules.

ROLL BAR not cage is required for all convertibles, targas etc as a Minimum standard. Roll Bar in this case is not a factory bar but a BMWCCA ( nee SCCA ) style Roll bar ( although I think they allow ERW not just DOM). Each chapter could have rules beyond this if desired. ( ie Roll cage and /or a hard top) --the main issue of contention was with hard top convertibles --ie the newer retractable types now on the market and the various chapters voted to treat them as convertibles without more data. Pete Lyons from the insurance company was there and did give some input for the regulations, but it was really the chapters who decided.

Although I do not agree with the Full cage rule and like the COM Roll bar rules, in Patroon the decision for a full cage was driven by the instructors. Atoms and Miatas are lucky to have a club like COM to play in.

DJ --former Driving Events chair for Patroon Chapter BMWCCA.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by chaos4NH » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:58 pm

Thanks DJ, best explanation heard yet. Actually, Atoms and Miatas are also lucky to have Boston BMW to run with.
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Re: BMW White Mountain says no Atom,no solo.

Post by breakaway500 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:45 am

"Atoms and Miatas are also lucky to have Boston BMW to run with".

Boston BMW have not confirmed Atoms for their events.I am waiting for the good word... :sunny:
It's not what you drive, it's how you drive. "Lap times matter"

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